Joe Arrigo: The Power of MBTI and Personality Type

Nikhil Torsekar 

Hi, this is Nikhil coming to you from Chicago with The Shelly Story. My wife Shelly and I wrote a book and are currently working on a movie about our journeys with mental health, specifically bipolar disorder. As an offshoot of that, we developed a podcast called The Shelly story where we speak to people from a broad variety of backgrounds about diverse issues, most notably mental health. One of the methodologies that’s been used in a broad range of contexts, notably in corporate settings, is the Myers Briggs Type Indicator or MBTI.

I actually came across it in business school in a leadership development program and really found it fascinating as a way to identify strengths, weaknesses, compatibilities and other nuggets to help guide my work. So I’m really excited to speak to today’s guest Joe Arrigo, an expert on all things MBTI. Joe and I had connected on LinkedIn through some shared connections, and I really found his content on this framework fascinating. So I was just overjoyed to have him on the podcast.

So I’ll go ahead and tell you a little bit about Joe. Joe Arrigo is a typology addict, pontificator, and Myers Briggs Type Indicator certified coach and an INTJ. Topics of discussion to get him going our philosophy, economics, politics, Bitcoin, books, music and personality type. He’s a lifelong learner discovering that his truest passion is reading, and 2020. His goal is to read 100 books by the end of the year, and he wound up reading 105.

When he’s not buried in a book, Joe can be found finishing a puzzle with his wife, working out eating carnivore and using the MBTI assessment to engage with the world around him. Recently, he’s completed his first short book on MBTI. And we’ll be releasing it this summer. So Joe, again, it’s great to have you have you on the show. If there’s anything you want to add to what I’ve shared with the audience…

Joe Arrigo 

I really appreciate the concise intro. It’s funny to be called an expert. And I feel like “Gosh, I guess I would never call myself that.” But people say like, well, “Joe’s an expert,” so I guess I’ll allow it. That is essentially me. I do feel like my truest passion is reading but also the Myers Briggs Type Indicator, as you mentioned, and I do not see myself changing my career ever. Like this is where I’m supposed to be.

Nikhil Torsekar 

Just in a nutshell, I guess because we talked about obviously, we got on the screen here that you’re a recruiter. But I wanted to get a better understanding of your path to MBTI in the context of recruiting and coaching and all that good stuff. So if you could paint us the picture of how you how you got to this point.

Joe Arrigo 

Yeah, and I appreciate you asked me that. Because I’m really usually bad at talking about myself, I always think I always think my journey is boring. When I got out of film school, I did whatever film major does that go into sales because film doesn’t pay. And then I did sales roles, cold call, my call center stuff landed and recruiting. And recruiting was one of those first areas where you start to really understand like, what a culture fit means. And what like placing the right candidate in a company by their personality type didn’t call it that they said culture fit. But I think that’s where your personality, your personality isn’t good, or it is good.

So when I got furloughed due to COVID, it was one of those opportunities where life kind of gives you just that smallest amount of like, “Hey, here’s an opening,” you’re never going to have another chance in your life where you’re getting paid by the government to sit around, you’re still going to commission checks. And we’re going to subsidize you to start your business. So I started it. You fast forward about two and a half years till now.

And I’m still going strong. I landed a contract recruiting role during COVID in last couple of months. So been fortunate there, but I do I do think MBTI and recruiting can go together. And that’s part of what my books actually about is like how corporations can integrate type into the recruiting and interviewing process without having biases or any discrimination issues using it.

Nikhil Torsekar 

I think it would be helpful because I always found this thing fascinating. The first time I heard about it, like I said, I did it in a leadership development program. But this might be a challenge, but I’m wondering, can you in a nutshell, maybe talk about what the MBTI is for maybe people who aren’t as familiar with it.

Joe Arrigo 

It is a self assessment that groups you into a huge box of 16 types. And basically what the assessment will give you is a four letter code comprised of eight different letters

• Extraversion versus introversion, that’s E versus I
• Intuition versus sensation, that’s N versus S
• Thinking versus feeling, that’s your T and F
• Judging versus perceiving that’s your J and P.

And essentially, what you can do a lot of things with this, you mentioned the corporate environment. So many books have been written on there’s a book called do what you are, which is the MBTI career what career should I do as ENFJ?

Nikhil Torsekar 

Like What Color is Your Parachute?

Joe Arrigo 

Essentially yeah, like the colors is like a temperament based one. And really, actually, I’m glad you mentioned that, because when you look at the intro for like, the colors and stuff like that, it’s all based off Carl Jung and temperament and they’re like, “oh, Jung was an influence.” They all say it. So why not just go with the best and go with Carl Jung’s original work with psychological type?

Nikhil Torsekar 

Yeah. And you mentioned Carl Jung and one of the things that I found interesting was I think it’s your YouTube channel. Your persona is the Ghost of Jung, right?

Joe Arrigo 

Yeah, that’s my Etsy store. I tried to make posters and T shirts based on tight, but yeah, it goes to feeling really felt like that’s what I was striving towards.

Nikhil Torsekar 

So like, in terms of your introduction to MBTI, you mentioned that it was during COVID, it was something you really went all in on? Was it something that was introduced to you in the recruiting context? I’d like to understand that a little bit. Yeah, sort of what what your exposure was?

Joe Arrigo 

Well, I think at first it was Facebook or something where someone would post the results. And I said, “Hey, take it, take it.” And then I did and then I kept doing that every successive year. And I kept saying, like, even in my book, I said, like, it was the third year in a row that I was taken out, I got INTJ and I write that I didn’t find type; type found me and like, the universe was like this keeps sending me the signal every once a while, I just had to answer it, but I did what everyone did 16Personalities that gives you the which is actually based on the Big Five will give you that like INTJ-A or INTJ-T.

So I started there, that was a catalyst

Nikhil Torsekar 

16Personalities is based on the Big Five?

Joe Arrigo 

Yeah. So that that last -T -A is the fifth trait of neuroticism in the Big Five. So they kind of judge you, if you’re a TI a turbulent, you’re more neurotic type or A assertive, you’re more, I guess, balanced. So that’s how they get. That’s how the 16 personality gets away with not like plagiarizing. MBTI, because there is a lot of crossover, there’s a lot of overlap, and correlation. But I did that.

And then I just had enough, I was at a stage where I was plateauing. Like I wasn’t, life was good, life was not terrible or bad. But I had enough brain capacity to dig deeper. And I went way down the rabbit hole like way, whatever paths the rabbit hole is, that’s where I was with type, like ever consumed all this stuff. And at some point, I just said, “Hey, look, I need to make this a business because it’s the only thing I think about all day, like, just type was everywhere.” So I said, at least do something with this.

Nikhil Torsekar 

Working with recruiters – that’s sort of from a different lifetime. For me, I haven’t worked with recruiter in quite a while. Usually when I have worked with recruiters in the past, they do a great job. I mean, they have relationships with the companies, and they’ll give you the insights like, hey, we placed a candidate here, and this is the path that they went down. And you’ve got a great background, here’s what you want to play up and align it with the role. But I’ve never asked I don’t think I’ve seen any recruiter that’s actually incorporated this into their practice. Have you come across that at all? Or is this pretty unique?

Joe Arrigo 

I would say it’s pretty unique. I know a lot of recruiters that like it. They like oh, and like they kind of know it, but implementing it. Now, I think I don’t want to say I’m the first, because that sounds arrogant. But I so far, I’ve not come across anyone that has used it deliberately. I have done it in my recent contract role.

With job descriptions. I’ve added these sections for mindset. And essentially what I’m trying to do is write and then turn internal dialogue for what types I believe will be good at this role. So the candidates will not say, oh, like I’m probably that they will self-select out. I’m absolutely not that I will not apply in the hopes that the company will get a good candidate and the candidate won’t waste their time with a long application process or an interview.

And then in the interviewing, you can interview using all eight of the cognitive functions because they provide a path for your cognitive pathway. So if you ask a question to Nikhil, Nikhil to ask you a question, and happened to be one of your weakest functions, I will be able to tell you’re either lying to me You’re making up an answer, or you literally your brain doesn’t do it that often. So it’s not, flexing something, it’s used to flexing. So in that way you can use type without saying like, I only want INTJ A’s, which is no, no.

Nikhil Torsekar 

Yeah. Right. INTJ is only… And I think some people would do that. Yes, yes. INTP’s need not apply?

Joe Arrigo 

Yeah, that’s what it’d be.

Nikhil Torsekar 

So I’m curious. I want to understand like, because I think when we talked, you said that you are your vertical or your functional areas primarily in technology, how does that sort of lay out that is in technical roles in a variety of industries?

Joe Arrigo 

When I first started in a staffing firm, I was all technical recruiting. My current contract role is more on the pharmaceutical, there are some tech roles, but it’s mostly in quality control, quality assurance. Yeah. And

Nikhil Torsekar 

I mean, that’s a fascinating field, like you want to talk about. Typically technical work is something that requires a lot of very in depth, focused work, right? Obviously, there’s interaction, and you have your scrum meetings. And, and there is that interactive element. But a lot of times there is the need for, for focus and, and deep attention. Is it something that you give them the test when you when you bring them through the process? Or is it something you sort of glean about like, what their type is?

Joe Arrigo 

I’m pretty much anti test or assessment? We don’t we do not say “tests,” because that implies there’s wrong answers. What we say assessment, it’s just, I even say testing out to you, but I just don’t think a self-assessment will be good in the corporate setting, because I’ve actually had a recruiter, friend of mine that administered it to like hundreds and hundreds of people over the years, and there’s only four types that ever come out of it. It’s always ESTJ, ISTJ, INTJ, INTJ.

It’s like, well, clearly, that’s, that’s not it. There’s all these others. There’s, there’s 12 others. So people in a corporate setting, we’ll try to guess what they want to hear. So in that sense, it’s not, it’s not good.

If you’re a skilled practitioner, and you’re used to trying to look at type, you can see like, Oh, I’m getting this answer, by the way that they phrase, they say things, they’re most likely one of these two types. And I can be pretty sure that would be. So from the candidate point of view, I’m not given an assessment, I’m asking questions in a certain way that will give me a how strong are they in this function?

Nikhil Torsekar 

No, that’s a great point. That was one of my concerns with the MBTI was just it seems like, you can sort of skew it to the answer that you want. Like, if you’re, like I was saying before, in business school, there’s a lot of Type A personalities and they all want to have a C in their title. So they’re going to game the system. How do you introduce MBTI into the actual like position?

Joe Arrigo 

Oh, that’s right. That’s right.

Nikhil Torsekar 

It’s because obviously, it’s not something where you talk to the “MBTI Department at Facebook,” and they give you the exact type. Like, I want to understand sort of how you okay, and I’ll get on to the and then for also for the for the company as a whole.

Joe Arrigo 

That’s a great question. And I’ll give you like a very specific example, because my biggest problem as an INTJ is that I make these intuitive leaps, where I just I fill in, like, I assume everyone fill in the blanks, I’m gonna do my best to just give a very practical detail by detail answer, which is that you have a job req, a manager, you will speak to the manager, if you’re a recruiter, and you ask them what you’re looking for, like very broadly, and they’ll tell you, what they’ll tell you is functionally as an MBTI practitioner, what the person needs what they need. So they might need someone that needs a little bit extroverted thinking, Introverted Sensing, so we’re talking ISTJ, ESTJ, and what they’ll tell you is only someone who’s extremely organized, good at prioritizing their time, knows how to delegate tasks, stuff like that.

So now we’re getting a type, but they’re not telling us but we’re thinking, okay, so when I write a job description, based on that I’m adding that that sort of mindset is like, what would an ESTJ, ISTJ, ESFJ…what would they think in the seat, and I’ll write that dialogue down. So that’s about as practical as I can get with, with how you would write it down. That’s why when you see such as like, team player, problem solver strategy, it’s like, that’s everyone. Everyone has a certain level of strategy in their mind. So I get away from…

Nikhil Torsekar 

“Results oriented.” That’s my favorite one. It’s like why else would you be working?

Joe Arrigo

And are you not goal driven? Like a not a team player? Yeah. So you we talk about the ridiculousness of job descriptions and we’re not doing anything about it up, we’re not using a different framework. So we wouldn’t say team player would be like striving for harmonious relationships amongst team.

But you could also do the opposite, which would be like, striving to challenge every single member of my team that is, those are different. There’s like, I’m challenging people, or I’m harmonized, or like I want everyone to get along versus I want everyone to be competitive. That’s like an extroverted feeling. And extroverted thinking, so ENFJ, or an EN TJ type. So I’m thinking about that. It’s a bit nuanced. And it takes a lot of work, but it will get you better candidates. I think you and I have talked about this prior, but like, I honestly wouldn’t even try to introduce type to a large organization like a Google or a GM.

Like, what are you going to do? What change can you affect in a company that’s got like a thousand VP’s? Like, what are you gonna do? It’s, it, there’s too many layers, you can’t restructure it, you have no power, it’s like, it might as well be good with a small team within the organization work with 5 to 10 people, but don’t try to like talk to the CEO and have them revamp it. You can add zeros to your invoice, but are you helping people? I don’t think so.

Nikhil Torsekar 

Your business is the MBTI coaching, like, can you tell me a little bit more about sort of how that works? Because it sounds like there’s two general buckets, you’ve got the workshops. And you can go into a little bit more detail about that. But then there’s a one-on-one coaching, which it sounds like that has felt a lot more impactful, even if I might not be as lucrative. But like, how does like let’s say, if I were to sign up with you and say, Hey, I need an MBTI. Coach, like, what would that look like?

Joe Arrigo 

It would be it’d be five session five, one-hour sessions of teaching the model from just like, what the four-letter code is to the PhD level class, which is understanding the archetypes and the eight month eight function model, which is like the one that I really like, which is very complicated. And then the next five weeks or hours would be implementation, reiteration adjusting, like as you go out into the world and try on what you’ve learned.

My kind of tagline is from Galileo, which is like, you cannot teach him anything, you can only help him reveal what’s already there. So I just teach the model, I don’t say you need to do this as this type. Because you’re weak here, I just say, here’s the model. And every type has a unique revelation, where they’re like, “oh, everything makes sense now.” And it’s great to see that moment as a coach where like, that light switch goes on. Like, this explains everything about why I shouldn’t be in this career, or why I definitely need to keep pursuing this career.

Nikhil Torsekar 

And then, the workshops you mentioned, I guess, I wanted to understand, because this was something that I found very interesting is that I like what you said about how you can just add zeros to the paycheck, if you’re, if you’re going to work with big corporates, or you know, do the workshops.

But I’d like to understand sort of what the reception has been from some of these bigger organizations, when you’re doing these workshops, like, take us take me through that.

Joe Arrigo 

Yeah, I’ve submitted a number of proposals, and I’ve had a number of discussions with like, directors of HR and things like that. And I sort of have a like, I wouldn’t say jaded, but I feel like they’re not effective in the sense that that someone’s spending the money on it thinks it will be. And the problem with that is because unless every single person that’s sitting in that workshop is super a true believer, most people have been like, “yeah, I got I took that test before and it didn’t, it didn’t line and the practitioner wasn’t good.” So they’re already sitting there with poopy pants not participating, ruining it for everyone else.

You can’t help people as much I do think and I write this in my new book, which is like, if you do insist on doing a workshop, there’s a couple things that will make it better. And I think most practitioners do this. But I think you need to divide people in very small groups, divided the introverts and extroverts but then mix introverts and extroverts talk about, like, what annoys you about communicating with this type? And you can, yeah, as long as everyone’s like, in a psychologically safe space, you will get something out of it. But it’s that ongoing implementation and reiteration that you miss with the workshop. Yeah, it’s sort of like they spent money. Everyone feels better for a couple of days, but then you put your test results somewhere and you forget what your type is.

Nikhil Torsekar

And I mean, we’ve all been through that because I remember like 20 years ago, one of the companies I’ve worked with, they’re really big into the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And you know, it was like slipped down the line. There are people who are you know, complete Stephen Covey zealots, big fanboys of Franklin Covey methodology.

And then yeah, there were people who just you know, like we were talking about like Michael Scott in the office he signs his name Daffy Duck Because as diversity training.

I want to understand like when you found out your personality type like what kind of impact did that have in your personal journey? Was it fitted confirm a lot of the system or not really like assumptions you had about yourself? Or did it give you some new insights maybe just taught me a little bit more? Yeah,

Joe Arrigo 

I think you’re you nailed it was saying like, it confirmed some things. But it also gave me a language to speak about it to others. And that’s the most beautiful part about type is it is a shared language like when you say, I’m an introverted, intuitive, that means something and that that label tell someone like this is the thought process of this person. So when I started digging into type, I started to look at retroactively my friends, group books, I like authors. I like music I like oh, well, that, that producers and INTJ Christopher Nolan, one of my favorite filmmakers, he’s an INTJ. I’ve read a lot of Nietzsche. I like Nikola Tesla, all INTJ. And I was like, Wow, that’s so unique. I didn’t know that. But these are men, women creators that I could now model myself after, in a way. So every type will have that they’ll start to see people around them and influences on their life. Probably be either their type or their sister type. Like I have a big fascination with INTJ’s as well.

Nikhil Torsekar 

You made videos about working with them or something?

Joe Arrigo 

Yeah, I did have a big Napoleon poster behind me. And I’ve read it. I’ve read a book on Caesar. So like, I really like them. And I think like, even if you’re an ENFP, you’ll resonate with INFP. But you’ll just understand that you’re not alone. And your thoughts have been thought before. And that’s okay. That’s great. And, and you have a place in the world.

Nikhil Torsekar 

So with your personality type, I’m just curious, like, INTJ like, is there like the magic MBTI type that you work well with?

Joe Arrigo 

Oh, yeah, good question. That’s a great question. Because that’s like, that’s the thing is theory. And then what actually happens in the real world. Usually, it matches pretty good. I love ENTJ’s. Obviously, their sister types have their cognitive functions are just slightly flipped. In a playful setting, with the opposite sex ENFP females, typically are the most like attractive or attractive, very complimentary. Because that type is very much willing to hear you out joke with you stay open minded, just play along very well. I have the hardest time in the world with ENFJ’s. I don’t know why. But I’m just I look at their functions. And I go, “there must be something there that makes them…”I don’t understand them. They don’t understand me. So we typically just like, grind is what is going on? So that would be the answer there.

Nikhil Torsekar 

I’m just curious, like, because my, my personality type is ISTP. Off the top of your head, what would be the best personality type for me? And then right after this, I’m gonna go have my wife take the 16 Personalities quiz.

Joe Arrigo 

No, I’ll send you a better one. I’ll send you a free one. Well, the way that I look at that, like top of my head is that there’s a shadow type of all personality. So ISTP would be ESTJ, would be the opposite personality type of the shadow of yourself. So, I think you had mentioned that you had gotten ESTJ when you tested back in…

Nikhil Torsekar 

Yeah, yeah, I’ll get to that.

Joe Arrigo

Okay, perfect. Well, my best work in relationships are with ENTPs, which are my shadow type. So it’s interesting that I think that yin yang really actually works in theory and in practice, so ESTJ would be yours.

Nikhil Torsekar 

Yeah, that’s a good segue into what I was going to talk about next is like I said, I had taken this test back in business school. And as I had shared with you, our journey, Shelly my wife and I, really revolves around mental health, specifically bipolar disorder, because it’s something that I was struggling with for more than 20 years and hadn’t gotten the diagnosis. And so I got the diagnosis in 2016. And things are knock on wood. I mean, things are pretty good. Right now, I’d say a lot more stable. There’s a lot less ups and downs. Life is not all roses, but obviously there’s definitely a much brighter present than the past.

But I do want to say that when I took the MBTI back in, I want to say it was 2010. I was in business school, working a full time job. And in addition to that I had come from a immigrant background, like my parents were born in India, they came here, and they really impressed upon me the importance of really, really hard work, putting your nose to the grindstone and really just tuning out any distractions and any sense of depression or anxiety was seen as a weakness.

So there was a lot of dismissing a lot of that stuff and really just keeping your eyes on the prize. And so in business school, especially at the time, I had I was going through a manic episode, there was a lot of goal or they say that with, with mania, there’s a lot of goal oriented behavior, which it sounds like it’d be a good thing, but it’s a little bit pathological. Right? You’re very, very, like come hell or high water.

Right? So when I took the test back, then I got ESTJ, and then I wouldn’t say like, My personality is completely opposite. But at heart I was I’m definitely an introvert. So now my personality type is is ISTP. So that was something that I found fascinating was, how can you know, how can a personality type shift that much? So I wanted to understand from you, have you seen that? Have you seen that type of situation where a personality type will shift that dramatically?

Joe Arrigo 

Well, I guess I would start by saying that personality type does not change. But the caveat I will say is you provide a perfect example of someone who is quote, living in their shadow, they spent so much time in a place that they are not innately supposed to be the Jung and Freud and Adler, they’d all say the same thing. They’d say, eventually, it came to a head. Like where they’re neurotic, the neurotic tendencies, the manic episodes of hallucinations, the nightmares, anxiety, palpitations, those are all based on you living where you should not be. And if you would have got a different type, I would be like, I don’t know how to explain it. But the fact that type of logically speaking, you literally got the shadow, I have to believe that you were just in a place for so long that you just bubbled up to the surface, you suppress it for as long as you could.

But someone else asked me this question. And that’s like the last part of my book that I’m finishing, which is can personality types change? And I think it cannot, it’s like, the best description I’ve heard is that there is a personality type is like the structure of your house foundation walls, the architecture, those say the same, but you can change the paint color, you can move new furniture, and you can slap a new floor, paint, roof, all that and make it look different. Or even keeping it as simple as like this lipstick on a pig. It’s so superficial.

So like you getting a different job or dating a different person or moving to a different country may look like “he’s making a change”. He’s just, he’s just the same person, but he might develop weaker parts of the personality. So that’s what I want to say is, most people say I used to be an introvert. Now I’m an extrovert. And then I go know, you used to be weak at extraversion. You’re better at extraversion now as you grow up, but that doesn’t mean you’ve not you’re now an extrovert. Yeah, Do I seem like an introvert or extrovert to you?

Nikhil Torsekar 

Well, it’s hard to it’s hard to answer that objectively because I already know the answer. But I wouldn’t say probably introvert, to be honest, I mean, you are you’re personable, you’re friendly. You know, obviously online, you like to joke around, it’s tough. But yeah, I can see that you’re probably get more energy, like sort of being more introspective, I guess.

Joe Arrigo 

Sure. And I think even my, my own dad is like, No, you’re an extrovert because he only sees me like, interacting with him about like, sports or whatever. So it’s like, yeah, that doesn’t mean I’m now an extrovert because I’m, I’ve done more speeches, and I’ve gotten more comfortable being a public speaker. My core personality is still introvert. So you maybe had to take on extroverted tendencies for 20 years, you say so like, no one would have probably said Nikhil is an introvert.

Nikhil Torsekar 

No, I mean, because when I was in high school in college I was really into theater, I love doing impressions. I’m like at the party, I’m the guy who’s like, Hey, do that do that personality. Maybe maybe when we stop recording, I’ll do my Shrek impersonation, another famous ISTP. And that was one of the other things I wanted to talk about on get your take is, America has always been a very individualistic society. The Pursuit of Happiness is literally written in our Declaration of Independence. And so it’s something that in order to realize that American dream there is that need to really go all out or go all in or however you want to write.

And when you when you think about a pioneer when you think about a trailblazer you never think about a bookworm you never think about that guy who’s you know, got his nose in the library. So, there was always I would say, a bias towards extraversion, not just in my culture being you know, part of that immigrant ethos, but in the United States, definitely. There was a premium placed on people who are magnetic and who can draw crowds in I mean, I’d say I can I can get by but you know, if you put me in a room with a bunch of people, I mean, my first tendency is not to go up to everyone and shake hands.

I’m just I kind of want to get a feel for the room, right? Like, do you in your research and your understanding? I mean, do you think there’s been more of an embracing of people with the introverts introverted personality type you think there’s more appreciation for?

Joe Arrigo 

Yes, totally. And you make a great point that Susan Cain brought this up in her book, Quiet. It was a hard book for me to read, it was so dense, but one thing that stuck in my head was like, we kind of got all sucked into the Dale Carnegie How to Win Friends and Influence People type sales mentality, where it’s like, the more magnetic and gregarious you were, the more you would succeed. And I think for a long time you did. It’d be hard to argue that introverts made more money or you know, are better politicians with Zoom being like eCommerce being able to do a business with without being like a door to door salesperson are introverts have kind of like, become, they have come like, to the forefront of like business?

I mean, you have people like Bill Gates, but I think you have people like Elon Musk, INTJ that’s kind of like the weird, quirky, introverted tendencies that even though he’s out in the world, very visible, you can tell he’s, like, an awkward kind of person. And he doesn’t do great when he does speeches. So I think we’re on an even scale now of like, who can succeed and who can’t? And I think introverts are doing it. Like, I think we have a lot of good representation.

Nikhil Torsekar 

Yeah, I mean, I came across some great posts on medium in defense of introverts or the rise of the introverts.  I think that’s important because you can’t have an organization that’s… one of the best ways to phrase it was “I’ll take Bill Gates over Steve Ballmer any day, right?” Whenever you think of Steve Ballmer, I don’t know if you’ve seen that clip of him running around on stage all sweaty. And then if you look at the returns Microsoft under an extrovert was, that was like their worst stock performance in history.

Right, versus I don’t know what Satya Nadella is. MBTI is but you know, the point is, I mean, it’s reassuring, and I feel good about this when I talk to my kids, because they’re, they’re personable, but they’re not like the social butterflies that are my parents told me I had to be and I’m, like, that’s completely fine. You know, I mean, if you want to stay at home and play Animal Crossing on a Friday night, nothing wrong with that. Yeah, that’s not going to prevent you from having a happy, healthy life.

Joe Arrigo 

Right. And that’s a great, that’s a great parenting message. I mean, my wife and I just had a son, and he’s like, five weeks old. And then like…

Nikhil Torsekar 

Have you given him the MBTI test?

Joe Arrigo 

He can’t quite self-assess, but he’s getting there. And as soon as he can, I will try to type in but my wife and ISTJ, I’m an INTJ. The likelihood if you do like a Punnett, square, whatever it’s called, he’ll probably be an introvert. Based on like, and based on lineage and genetics of like, I’ve more introverts in my family. So the message is, is great is like, it’s okay to be you don’t have to go out on Friday night. Because like, the site says, like, oh, he’d been a wet blanket, dude, like, what’s wrong? Like, none of that. That’s not gonna happen. I think that’s less than what’s happening in society.

Nikhil Torsekar 

With MBTI there’s been, I think it’s a very well-known personality test. But as with anything, I mean, something that’s that pervasive, there’s going to be the share of skeptics and critics. There was a video I saw by Jordan Peterson where he’s more in favor of the Big Five because he said, The I think it was like MBTI. Its favorite because you can’t get it wrong or something like that. one’s feelings get hurt. No one’s feelings. That’s, that’s, that’s it. Yeah. And then other critics had said, most of the time you take it five weeks later, it’s completely wrong. But what do you say to the MBTI doubting Thomases out there?

Joe Arrigo 

I don’t try to argue statistics like reliability or validity. I don’t try to like beat them and say actually, no, it’s like Jordan Peterson fighting.

Nikhil Torsekar 

You’re not fighting them on Reddit or anything.

Joe Arrigo 

I’m not fighting them on Reddit. I’m not trying to like having a logic-based argument about facts and data because no one’s going to be convinced. So what I what I do say is like, look, Jordan Peterson’s he, I think he’s done a disservice because he either purposely he knows young, he’s talked about young extensively.

So like, you can’t pretend doesn’t know. But he is promoting MBTI as something that’s predicting performance, and he says this all the time, and he says, well, Big Five will tell you who you are, but MBTI won’t help predict performance for me it has never tried to and Isabel Myers when she created it, she never said it will predict performance or intelligence or status in life if he does a straw man where he says type does this but it doesn’t it’s not supposed to. I’m like well, no one’s ever said it does. So one he gets gets it wrong there type was base Some youngin presuppositions and we didn’t have factor analysis back then. So we couldn’t really like account for is this really measuring introversion or not? And Big Five does better on there that I’m like, never tried to argue that. I kind of like to troll the people I say, Do you know anybody who has posted their Big Five results anywhere? There? Have there been meta studies, where they show like what parts of Big Five amputate overlap, and introversion extroversion? Definitely do. They both overlap. But that’s as much as I’ll say, because I don’t really know how to articulate the statistical analysis, but there is overlap. So they’re not mutually exclusive. They can work together. But it’s not about whether one’s more valid or not, I don’t think astrology is valid, but I think a lot of people gain a lot of insight from it. And they do feel like this tells me a lot about why I act certain ways in certain times of the year, and then certain moon cycles. And I say, Well, if that’s works for you, and it’s a tool you can utilize, then I don’t need to see a validity study. And they always miss that point. And I’m just like, Jordan, like, why do you argue this point? I think there’s a little bit of financial, he has his own assessment.

Adam Grant is another big guy who’s always that article from Vox that pops up every time you type in AI has been said Yo, where they where they get bonk it, you’re talking about the amortize useless, it sounds like 6 million 10 million views. I’m like, I always get sent that I’m like, I don’t care. And the other thing is, when you attack Carl Jung for being racist, because he was from born at 100. Like, that’s also unfair, because he’s a different, different time. Like, what are you supposed to do we? Do we invalidate him? Because he might have had some views about women that we don’t have now. Yeah. And that’s where it’s like, it becomes a disingenuous argument. I’m just like, we can’t be we can’t do that.

Nikhil Torsekar 

Well, you mentioned culture. That’s one thing that I found interesting, because in that, Vox, I know what the video you’re talking about. Or maybe it was it was somebody else; he made a good point that, it seems like MBTI is more skewed towards the Western culture. Because like I said before, America is a lot more individualistic. And so there is more self-awareness, there’s more self-insight, I think you have more knowledge of who you are. Because you know, you’re spending more time on your own versus like, my relatives in India they all live they, it’s a very, it’s a more collective as communal type of society. Would you say that’s, that’s a fair statement to say that maybe there’s certain cultures that MBTI is more applicable to them than others? Or would you say it’s more universal?

Joe Arrigo 

I know this video, actually reshared it to my community, on YouTube. But I think that Isabel Myers created it after World War Two, because she was like, we need to come together, we need to find out like we should not have any of this this war. Basically, I’m very, I’m very simply talking about it. But the goal was that it would transcend race, age, color, creed, language, these thoughts are not Western thoughts. The questions are not Western based questions. They’re not asking, like, when you go to a bar in New York City, like, well, what you don’t have that experience, they’re just asking questions that any human will know. So I don’t think it does. And I remember the arguments. That might be true, he might be right. Is it just a Western viewpoint? But like, I don’t think he answered like, what else it would it be? Like any, like, let’s take Enneagram, for example. Enneagram is ancient. But I, they’ve there’s never been a criticism that it’s like, oh, it’s we can’t use it in western world because it’s comes from like, Sufi, like spirituality and mysticism. Yeah. I never heard that argument.

Nikhil Torsekar 

Yeah, I mean, that’s the way I look at it. I mean, I look at this more in shades of gray. And it’s just another piece of insight that can help you gain self-awareness. It’s not something that and I have some issues sometimes too with it, because my personality type is ISTP. And there’s definitely a lot that is pretty spot on. But the one thing that I find interesting, and there is actually another video that was speaking to this is that when you hear ISTP, you think, Virtuoso or Tinkerer or Mechanics; it’s always a mechanic. And I’m like, the least handy guy around, so it’s interesting because they when you hear that you’re like, “wait a minute, I am like a total butterfingers. I’m not at all…” But again, yeah, I mean, that’s the way I look at it is just that it’s just another data point.

Joe Arrigo 

Absolutely. Dario Nardi is one…I consider my mentors he’s he is, he wrote a book called the Neuroscience of Personality. And recently he’s kind of come out with his Neuroscience of Personality 2.0 data wrote the first book in 2011. But essentially he’s come back with, there are four subtypes of all the types. So they’re like there’s a, there’s an ENFP. There’s your classic, like, cheerleader type hype man, enthusiastic, but then there’s also more of a dominant, and there’s more of a creative is more of a harmonizing. And there’s a normalizing.

So the brain patterns that each of the types represent are similar, but it gives them a different flavor, or nuance, because most ISTPs are very quiet. They answer questions with like one word, detours, and but one of my favorite topologists, she’s an ISTP. And she’s super eloquent. She talks a lot, she almost comes across as extrovert. She does like to go out in nature and like shoot guns and stuff. But it’s more about being an introverted thinker. Right?

Like, because the way that you’re asking the questions of me is like, you’ve asked the high level question, and then you’ve continued to dig deeper, deeper, deeper, until you understand the core essence, which is Ti Introverted Thinking. So when you say I’m an ISTP, I’m like, “Well, yeah, that makes sense.” Because of the way that you start digging all the way down farther and farther and more niche more nuanced. That sounds more like an ISTP than a mechanic. But okay, but that’s just because we have to assign archetypes. And that just comes up more often. So I would say you’re probably more of a creative ISTP than a normal guy like hands on likes to work on cars, or jet engines or something

Nikhil Torsekar 

Very interesting. I read some excerpts from your book. Could you tell me a little bit more about the book? And before you say that? You had me at Harold and Kumar. I will say I saw the excerpt about that scene in that movie. And I was like, yep I think, if anything, I want to I want to read more, because the drawing those kinds of references. It’s right up my alley. But tell us more about your book.

Joe Arrigo 

Well, the book was just something that I made myself do because I hate writing. And it’s one of those challenges that I’ve every year I can do a challenge one year, like it was books, government, I’m gonna 100 books no matter hell or high water, great phrase, TJ T phrase. So and people kept saying you should write a book. So I’m like, You know what, I’m going to fulfill their desire and mine and try to just do it and just not just push, just make it happen. So that was part of it. But then I kind of wanted to give like my manifesto, it’s, the book is called marble and sculptor, a type manifesto. So it’s my pitch on type, my origin story I talked about, I defined the cognitive functions from my point of view. I talked about corporations, how they should use it, how they do use it, how we could use it ourselves. I talked about all the resources, the books that inspired me, the YouTubers that I admire, and I just write and write I’m trying to get 200 pages on it.

But yeah, the references in my book are stupid. There’s like I referenced Constantine from Keanu Reeves. And I reference Harold and Kumar. And I think that’s that scene when I saw it was like the funniest scene ever, because it’s like, “that makes so much sense.” But then suddenly, I made that can that reference to how it makes sense that once you’ve gone a little bit into type, there’s no way you can unsee it? And that scene just clicked in my head, like a half a talk about it?

Nikhil Torsekar 

Yeah, that’s one of my one of my favorite movies. So you’re definitely speaking my language.

Joe Arrigo 

It doesn’t matter what your type is, it matters what you do about it, like INTJ is oh, they tend to be like the most intellectual. But if you don’t make an impact, either on like your community, your family, the business world, with that, that magic of your type, then then what’s the point of being the type if you’re not gonna do something about it? Yeah type does put you in a box, but it’s a huge box, and it will take your entire life young called that individuation and it takes your entire life to do it. So your box is something that will take you forever to explore. So it’s okay to be put in in a box.

Nikhil Torsekar 

So I’m going to put your information up here. So this is people are looking to get a hold of you. You’re at Advisr Enterprise. Yes. It’s interesting. I thought at first, Avis Rent-A-CAR and Enterprise Car had merged or something. I was like, Oh, wait, no, no. Advisor enterprise? Yes. So that advisor, SR enterprises.com, joe-recruiter.com And then you’re on LinkedIn.

Joe Arrigo 

I would say LinkedIn is the easiest way I respond to all DMs, except sales pitches like if someone wants to say like, Hey, great article, or hey, Joe, you’re an idiot like Big Five is better. I will respond in kind to everybody.

I just want to say first of all, I want to say thank you to you. When you reached out to me for this episode, I didn’t realize how long ago we had spoken we had a pretty interesting conversation on type. And what you’re doing on your on your podcast is very interesting. Some of the guests that you’ve had, it’s like I know that the mental health angle is there, but some of the stuff you’re talking about is less boilerplate. You have guests that are interesting, like some of the astrology and I think Ayurveda, such as cool stuff and like unique. So I appreciate what you’re doing in the mental health space and just being different. That’s why I accepted this enthusiastically.

Nikhil Torsekar 

Thank you. Well, I’m glad you brought that up, because I had actually alluded to MBTI. In one of the episodes, it was the one about Ayurveda, because there is in Ayurveda, there’s the notion of dough shows, which is a different energy types. There’s Vata, Pitta and Kapha. And I encourage you to take a look at that a little bit more, because there’s a lot of parallels with MBTI. And I don’t know if you’ve come across this a lot more people have said, have people brought up like, hey, is there similarities between MBTI and astrology? Like your zodiac signs up like, types of you as that come across?

Joe Arrigo 

Oh, yeah. Most commonly I see type in Enneagram layered on top of each other. But I have definitely seen recently when I posted about astrology because I actually got a natal chart. And I hired an astrologer to do a session with me. And there are a lot of similarities. Like, I’m a Scorpio, INTJ Enneagram five, which is probably like the most stereotypical of all those, so I fit in that category. So 100%, you can link them.

Nikhil Torsekar 

Yeah, I’m an ISTP. And Libra, I guess.

Joe Arrigo 

Okay, what’s your Enneagram?

Nikhil Torsekar 

I have no idea. I didn’t know what any gram was until like, five minutes before the show. I didn’t have a chance to look it up. Okay, but I will, okay. Any, any particular people you’re looking to connect with or, or get a hold of?

Joe Arrigo 

If people that are in a career transition typically get a hold of me? It seems to be like it doesn’t. I didn’t think that would be what I would do. But it seems to be people go, I’m in this career change, I might as well see if I’m gonna go on the right path. If I’m on the right path, or if I need to change it. And they tend to go like, “well, let’s dig into myself. Let’s get real introspective for a minute.” And that’s where they find me. And then we figure out like, what we should do about your personality type. Because really what it is, is when you get into MBTI, it’s really you’re answering the question, “What am I supposed to do about the way that I am?”

Nikhil Torsekar 

Right, yeah. Well, Joe, thanks so much. It was real, real pleasure to speak to you. You have so much amazing insight and knowledge into this really fascinating methodology and way of analyzing people. So I really do appreciate it. I think it’s going to resonate with a lot of people. Thank you.

Joe Arrigo 

My pleasure. Thanks.