Saadia
Okay, so I am so glad that we are doing this. I’m really excited. And today we are going to talk about something extremely, extremely important, which is mental health. And its impact on relationships is something that both of you have talked about extensively. So before we delve in, can you both introduce yourselves and just give us a backstory as to who you are?
Shelly
I’m Shelly Sood, and entrepreneur, author, as well as mental health advocate and mother of three as well.
So my husband and I were married for 20 years, and he was suffering from undiagnosed bipolar disorder for nearly two decades. So I eventually helped save his life. You know, he had quite a journey to his healing and his whole process.
Saadia
I’ve been doing some research on both of you. And it seems like there’s so much to unpack right? And I’m just trying to think, where do we start, but surely, what I have noticed is that both of you have had different journeys, when it comes to dealing with Nikhil’s bipolar disorder, you’ve had your own journey he’s had his own, and then add immigrant identity, pressures of being you know, this alpha male, career, kids, all of that in the mix, and it’s a recipe for disaster, right? But I want to focus on healing. How has the healing been for both of you so far? And what have you learned through this process?
Nikhil
So first of all, Saadia, thanks so much for having us. And I really appreciate you braving the elements, as they say, to make this happen. So we’re really excited for this discussion.
So to add to what Shelly was saying: I had been suffering from undiagnosed bipolar disorder for about two decades. I recently got my diagnosis about five years ago. And I learned firsthand what the difficulties are with stigma of mental health within the South Asian community just because, as you noted before about the need to achieve the need to live up to that immigrant ideal was really challenging, but fortunately with Shelly’s help and some work that I’ve done, I was able to overcome that.
Nikhil
I think it really for me, it starts with humility and awareness, because that was not “in my wheelhouse” as they say. I had gone to a top business school, I had worked at a lot of the top consulting firms, some of the top banks. And it really just wasn’t in my vocabulary, it was just about the whole “grin and bear it,” take the stoic approach, and the merits of grit and positive attitude. So it took a real bottoming out for me to wake up, and as Shelly says, “smell the cappuccino,” and realize that I really needed some help. I think, for me, it was…I think about in corporate America, how they have those trust exercises where there’s a group of people and you sort of fall back.
That’s really what was the springboard for my recovery, was trusting in Shelly and trusting in her family, and realizing that they really saw the real me, and saw beyond just some of the behaviors that I was exhibiting saw that I was a caring father caring husband someone who had a really good sense of humor, and had a good heart. So that’s really important it part of healing is to have somebody in your corner. I’m very fortunate and blessed to have that. You know, and I really encourage people who whether it’s friend or family, who really seek out that person who really knows the real you.
Nikhil
And we can Shelly can add to this also. But I think you have to have a very well-rounded approach, and you can’t rely on one specific tool over the other.
So for me, obviously, medication was the start of that. Cognitive behavioral therapy, obviously talking to a good therapist, not just one who tells you what you want to hear, and just ignores kind of what’s hiding in plain sight. More recently, what’s entered into that equation is going beyond those sort of the table stakes, as they say.
And that would involve meditation and mindfulness, which is something that Shelly and I really actively embraced. There’s so many different gurus out there, but the one that’s really resonated with us has been Deepak Chopra. We went to one of his retreats, we listen to his meditations. And I think one of the key teachings that I’ve taken away from that is the body is it’s not a noun, it’s a verb. And I say that because there’s so many processes going on in our mind. And there’s so many people who get a diagnosis whether it’s multiple sclerosis, or it’s something like arthritis. And they sort of accept that as fait accompli. And they, they don’t realize that, obviously, there’s a biological underpinning to it. But if you think about this in a holistic approach, and you think about how much control you really have I think that can really win the day.
Shelly
Yeah, I absolutely agree with him. One of my healing processes, as he indicated, was meditation, through this whole journey. And it really helped me because as Deepak Chopra puts it, a chaotic mind, no matter what the thought is, whether it’s positive or negative, is still a chaotic mind. So really, quieting that mind was very key to my own personal healing journey. And it helped us rebuild our marriage and find a better place within ourselves to have a fulfilling life, have a happy, a good career, a happy family life, raise our children effectively. You know, the other thing that really drove me is I stopped caring about what other people think.
Shelly
And I think that is one of the biggest downfalls whether it is South Asian culture, whether it is Americans in this country, no matter what. Their emotions are driven a lot of times by other people
Saadia
You know, in this day and age of social media, when social media sets up such unrealistic expectations about relationships, about marriage, you see these picture-perfect images of people vacationing and having good day. Nobody talks about the dark secrets, weaknesses, anxieties, fears, that come along and both of you have been so brave in just tackling that head on and having conversations. How hard was it to break through that and say, “You know what, we are going to share our story and we don’t get as you said, what others think?”
Shelly
It was very hard. It was an evolution, it was a journey for me because I had made so many mistakes in the past. Like, as you know, South Asians were a very collective culture. Yeah, right. We’re not individualistic, we’re looking out for our family. Any success that I had, or that Nikhil had was success for me as well.
So any failure that he exhibited was a failure for me as well. So my problem was, I was so driven by my ego. And I lived in this world of denial, because that’s just what you do. And that’s how you keep the family unit strong. And you know, that tend to like, suppress his emotions. So he wasn’t able to express really what was going on with him. And then one fine day just blew, everything just blew out of the water.
Saadia
You know, it’s interesting, because I was listening to your podcast interview, and you mentioned that you were in denial. You just said that right now as well. And what surprised me was that I’m sure Nikhil was exhibiting certain behavior, right, certain traits. And I’m sure it must have been confusing for you at the time as to what was happening and why he was going through these highs and lows.
And when he came to you, and he said, “look, this is what I’m suffering from.” In my mind, I was thinking that could have been like, you know, this is what it is. Now we nailed it. We know, but you were hesitant, like there was some reticence to even accept that and you tied that to being a reflection on who you are, and taking it as your failure. Exactly. Oh, incredible. Yeah.
So can you talk a bit about that?
Shelly
That was the biggest mistake of my life. And when he had decided to file for divorce and everything, and our family was in such turmoil, at that moment, in time, when this happened, I looked back and I thought about why did I accept it? Why did not? Why was I so busy with the children, with my job with whatever outside distractions that I was not looking within our own family unit.
And I think that is a big problem, because people really don’t step back, sit down and think about what’s going on and their family dynamic. You know, there’s a tremendous amount of judgment, has your approach both your approach, and I want to pose this question to both of you, towards your kids changed? Because of the process? Or the trauma that you’ve gone through? Are you more aware and mindful of your kids behavior? And if they have any questions, and if they have any fears? Are you more attentive to that now? versus say 10 years ago?
Nikhil
I think the biggest thing for me was just keeping up with the Joneses, or, I guess, in our, in our culture be keeping up with the Jains. We were part of a Sunday school group, and every week we would go there. And I thought, initially, these kinds of activities were great for educating our kids about the culture, but it became very competitive.
You know, it just became about, well what, how many activities is your kid in or what, how many spelling bees did your daughter win, and that was very toxic, not just for us, but for the kids. And I just think back to when we were growing up, and a lot of our achievement was just, it, the trophies on our mantle were a proxy for our worth, in our parents eyes, that’s definitely not the reality. But that was the perception that we had.
So you know, if some other kid won a tennis tournament, and we got knocked out in the first round we were not worthy. And so that I needed a lot of retraining in my mind. And I think about I think specifically about our son, because he’s just such a brilliant kid. And I mean he’s going to go so far and, but he’s, he’s one of these square pegs in a round hole. And if we were trying to apply that conventional template of X number of trophies equals a score or whatever the, the worth in our eyes, it would just crush him.
The other example would be our daughter, she’s an artist. She’s an illustrator, and she’s going to the top illustration school in in the country, this fall for college, and that was a very unconventional career path. And I gotta say, I mean, for me it was, it was hard. I’m very proud of her not just for her accomplishments, but just she’s a good person.
And at the end of the day, I mean, it’s about what they’re taking away. And it’s about how well adjusted they feel and how secure they feel. Because we want our grandkids also, to have that sense of stability and self worth.
Shelly
Motherhood has changed me quite a bit. I was exactly the same way.
Saadia
How has it changed for you?
Shelly
I was more about keeping up with the Joneses just like everybody else. And now, if my children are happy, they’re healthy. And they’re pursuing their own dreams, not my dreams for them, but their own dreams, then they’re going to live a great life. And I feel like that’s my job. And if I can do that, then yeah, I feel like I’m a good mother.
Saadia
You know, both of you bring up such important points. And most of what we are talking about is not linear, right? So one thing doesn’t lead to another. I feel like as immigrants because I am an immigrant parent, you guys are second gen. So for you, it’s it may be a bit different. But a lot of times immigrant parents are harder than on themselves and on their kids, right? Because somehow they are trying to find validation for leaving their home country moving to a new country, he started five. And in a way we pass on that trauma, that alienation, those fears onto our kids.
So I’m sure both your parents to some extent passed on that to both of you. And Nikhil, you’ve talked about your mom, right? You’ve talked about how she hasn’t been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, but you think she may have it. And I remember one thing you said on one of your interviews was that she said something like, I never had stress growing up, right?
Nikhil
“When I was when I was growing up, stress didn’t exist. I think it was created in a lab.”
Saadia
But the interesting thing is, I think it has something to do with also being in a collectivist society, right. So I grew up in Pakistan, I had family, extended family, cousins, aunts, uncles, even if you have stress it somehow I think shield, you shield it from it in a way or you are not as mindful of it. It’s not part of your consciousness, because there’s so much else going on, and there’s so much support, but when we come see, it’s alienation. It’s you know, being alone. And I’m sure it’s the same for both of you. Because as second gen kids, you don’t have your immediate family close by right. Was that the case when both of you?
Nikhil
They’re close by, but they’re not in the same town. I mean, it’s definitely nothing like what you see in India, where families they grew up in the same house and you know, your grandparents and you see them every day. It wasn’t like that, for sure.
Saadia
So tell me a little bit about your book, both of you have written a book as well. What does it contain? Can you give us some snippets of what people can expect from it?
Shelly
So Untethered is it’s a dual voice about a South Asian family whose spouse suffered from mental illness. And when I say “dual voice,” I mean, it is my voice as well as Nikhil’s voice.
And it’s very interesting, because it’s really never been done. Because there’s one incident that happens, per se, and I have a certain analysis of it, right. But Nikhil’s analysis could be completely opposite from what I was thinking. So it gives a very interesting perspective to the caretaker and somebody suffering from mental illness as well as both perspectives.
Saadia
So what’s an example of a situation where your perspectives were completely different?
Shelly
Sure. So when he had filed for divorce, he had said to me stop dislocated, you’re trying to dislocate my shoulder, you’re trying to hurt me and he was exhibiting paranoia. He was somewhat delusional at the time, versus me. I was tapping on his shoulder trying to talk to him trying to figure out what happened to our marriage.
Why did it fall apart separately? So that’s just a prime example of his perception of what was real and true versus what I saw as real and true. And so I was able to eventually when I came to grips with what was happening, understand that this illness is it’s an illness exactly that you know, and it has to be separated from the individual and their personality, and I knew his heart, I knew his heart and his soul was pure. And he was a beautiful person inside. So I knew what he was exhibiting and showing me was an illness.
Saadia
When did you, Nikhil, because you initiated divorce? When did you decide not to pursue it? Like, was there a moment? Was there some trigger when you said I’m not going to pursue it anymore?
Nikhil
I think the universe kind of decided that for me, because as what is very common with people with bipolar disorder, there comes a point where, as they say, the scales fell, and you’re living in this fantasy world where you’re on top of the world, everyone else is beneath you. And you can just do whatever; financial constraints don’t matter; health concerns don’t matter.
And I reached a point where I didn’t have a job, I didn’t have a place to live I had my “friends,” but I was completely estranged from my family. And I don’t want to get too much into my relationship with my parents. I think, deep down, they’re good people. But you know, unfortunately, it’s not a relationship that is really in place right now.
Shelly shared with me a comment that my dad made when she was there was no reason for her to try to help me at that point, because like I said, I had filed for divorce I was just hell bent on just walking away from this marriage. And what was interesting was, she told me, I guess my dad had basically intimated that this was all a plan. And that I wasn’t really going through any of this and that I was conning her, and he actually called me a sociopath.
And I hate to dredge up the past; but I bring that up because there comes a point when you get a gut punch. You have the rug pulled out from under you. And at that point, I said to myself, “whatever I’m doing, I thought it had been working all this time. It ain’t cutting it anymore. “
So I basically turned my whole self over to Shelly. It’s interesting when they talk about Alcoholics Anonymous they say, one of the precepts of that is turning yourself over to a higher power. And I have the higher power sitting right here. It’s just basically like, I, and again, I mean, I’m indescribably fortunate and blessed because there are a lot of people who their spouses would have given up on them.
Nikhil
But, and that, honestly, at that point, the term divorce didn’t even fall, it wasn’t even in the equation at that point. I mean, it was just literally like a person, I think about it, like a person who’s shipwrecked, and they’re drowning at sea. They’re not talking about, “Hey, maybe I can save 10 bucks on my internet bill.”
And that was that that was about the level of the priority was like, I just wanted to save my life. I wanted to get my relationship back with my kids. And at that point, the marriage hadn’t even occurred to me.
But as I saw how much belief she had in me, as I saw how much commitment there was it did everything just kind of fell into place. And that was that was when I decided to call the dogs, the lawyers, the rottweilers.
Saadia
Shelly, both of you have such an inspiring story. But I want to get into you know, your headspace and what you were thinking at the time, and why did you decide to just stick it out? Like despite everything that was happening around you.
Shelly
So I had given up on the marriage, but the point when I was getting treatment, yeah, I had given up on the marriage. And my main pursuit was that this man, I want him to be a good father to my children. He can be a good father to my children. And I want to give that to my children in my family.
And so I had pushed the marriage totally aside, mentally. And I did not deal with the marriage until he moved back into the house. And you know, he actually lived in the basement for a couple months, because I needed to heal, I needed to process everything. I wasn’t ready to jump back into this marriage when I had so much to process myself. He had so much internal healing to do myself that the marriage was really a low priority. It was more about his health.
Saadia
That’s amazing. Now in terms of South Asian community specifically, I grew up in Pakistan, your parents are from India. So it’s like, culturally, we are pretty similar (believe it or not).
What do you think are some of the challenges we are still facing in South Asian communities when it comes to having these open and honest conversations around mental health, mental illness, healing? Because sometimes I feel like in South Asian communities, especially among immigrants, like myself, we still think of it as a Western construct. It’s not something that happens to us. It’s something that’s been created in the West, and people who don’t have other issues to think about, they’ll just focus on this. So how do we change that narrative?
Nikhil
The collective concept that you talked about earlier is so important, and I don’t really fault immigrants for their views on mental health. So for second generation, immigrants. The thing is, we have our peers, we have the Indian community, we have the temple.
Nikhil
But there’s not really that equation of that community with family. You have to remember, like, when our parents came here; Our parents, Shelly, and my, they’re, they’re from the same community. They were both in Toledo, which is a not a very diverse town. And this was in the 70s. So you got to remember, I mean they were pretty much. I mean, the term used to be “illegal aliens.” And I mean, that’s a lot of the perception of immigrants in this country was just they were “other,” you know what I mean?
So really, in that context, when you don’t have anyone, you band together. This is basically a proxy for your family. And so coming out and admitting any weakness, when it’s something like mental illness, which is so misunderstood, and demonized, literally demonized in India.
That takes – I would say it’s beyond “courage” – I think it takes a lot of audacity to take that jump, because literally, you’re coming out, and you’re saying to these people who have been your lifeline, that “hey, I’m, I’m damaged goods.” Obviously, I don’t think that, but, and I think that even in this day and age, with all this information coming out with all these people sharing their stories and social media, and there’s still so much entrenched shame and fear.
And that’s part of that’s part of our book, I mean, the book is called Untethered. And that’s really what it comes down to is, it’s about breaking free of that false safety net. Because at the end of the day you have this sense that I have this “community,” and they’re like my family, but you’re harboring a lot of this hurt and this dysfunction inside.
Nikhil
So on the surface, as you alluded to earlier, I mean, if on Instagram and Facebook, you have this beautifully curated collection of world travels and your kid winning the spelling bee – it’s all BS, right? And so, so that’s what it is. It’s just a fear of it’s almost like and also like when a kid’s learning to swim a fear of pulling out the paddleboard or the floaties.
And so that’s really what our book gets into. It talks about untethering your life and getting rid of those shackles. Because it’s a false sense of security that really, in the end can really be destructive more than anything.
Shelly
Yeah, I would agree.
Saadia
And additionally, I think there’s so many other factors, right, especially people who identify as male we have certain expectations, we have certain, I guess, idea of what cisgender male looks like or how they act. And that in itself can be problematic, right? Because then you can’t show vulnerability. You can’t show anxiety, weakness.
How did you overcome that, Nikhil?
Nikhil
It’s still something I’m struggling with every day. I’d be lying if I say that I’ve become the perfectly idealized version of myself. I mean it’s just something that I remind myself I remind myself of what I have, I just remind myself that there’s no, there’s, there’s no benefit in being that person, obviously, I’m still very driven. I I’m very grateful to my parents for helping provide me with the education that allowed me to get a good career.
I had to pivot quite a bit going from high stress, high power banking career into something that’s it’s obviously we’re here to make money, but it’s more altruistic, it’s more, it’s more about helping humanity. And so that’s really what it is.
My buzzword meter coming off, but at the end of the day, it’s gratitude. It’s just about stopping to think like, okay and in the initial stages of my recovery, there was a lot of, “oh I was making this amazing salary before,” I was traveling all around, I had all these great names on my resume,” but I was miserable inside.
So even though success looks a lot different right now, at the end of the day, I mean, it’s just about gratitude. And it’s about remembering, it’s about remembering what I have.
Saadia
So how do you focus on gratitude? Like, what is the ritual you follow to just keep track of what you have, what you want, you want to have?
Nikhil
That’s what I was alluding to earlier about the buzzword meter going off is that you go to Target, they’ve got all these gratitude journals, you’ve got, like, you go on YouTube, there’s “how to be more grateful.” But for me, it’s just, it goes back a lot to the simple things. And going back to what Deepak Chopra said about the body being a verb and not a noun. It’s about mindfulness and taking that breath.
Because this happens all the time. And Shelly agree, it’s like in our business sometimes we’ll get an email from somebody, and it’ll just, it’ll just drive me nuts. But I will literally step back. I’ll take a deep breath. And I will say, maybe that person’s going through something in their life. That’s not not great. I’ve been there before.
Nikhil
And yeah, I mean, it’s just about it’s, it’s really just about keeping, I guess, keeping my eye on how far I’ve come. And not succumbing to that desire to judge my life based on that template that was handed down.
Shelly
Yeah, I agree. And I think it’s a major reprogramming. And the one thing you know, that I take away and learn in the last six, seven years is is not to be reactive, to what else is going on around you, and be more proactive. And so once I learned how to do that, through meditation, through my mindfulness techniques, I was able to turn off that noise and exhibit my creativity and launch a company and you know, work on a book and all this other things that really gave my it was soul food to me. So I think it’s so important for everybody to find their soul food.
Saadia
In the end, if you want, whoever is watching this, or even people who’ve listened to your podcast, if you want one thing, one takeaway, and I know it’s hard, like there could be million, right? What would it be?
Shelly
So I think the most important thing is, yes your family is important. Your children, your partner, your spouse are important, right? But you have to remember you are also important, and you really need to look within yourself and what makes you happy. And I think as a South Asian mother, and entrepreneur it’s difficult to see that and the only way to do that is to step back from everything that’s going on around you. You know what your kids children need, what your husband needs, and to look within yourself, what is one thing that brings you total joy.
Because a lot of times you know, these degenerative conditions and these diseases come up, because there is not just you know, only 5% are really attributed to a gene mutation, and the rest is all about your environment and all about how you are exhibiting yourself and living your life, what you’re eating, what you’re feeling what your subconscious mind is really thinking.
So I’d say that would be my biggest thing.
Saadia
For Shelly, what does happiness mean to you in this moment?
Shelly
Happiness is abundance to me. And I when I say abundance, I don’t mean financial abundance, I mean, emotional abundance and internal wealth.
Saadia
I love it. And what about you, Nikhil?
Nikhil
I guess I would say, the takeaway really should be “don’t subscribe to any template that’s been thrust upon you.” I mean, obviously, respect for your parents is very important. And that’s something that we want our kids to remember is that we did, we did bring them into this life, we’d have had many sleepless, sleepless nights financially, obviously, we’ve had to struggle and strive to help them.
But at the end of the day, we don’t want we don’t personally want them to feel that we’ve been that we’ve given them this impossible standard to live up to. So I would say that would be the number one takeaway is just not to have this one size fits all about what it really means to make it.
As long as you can sleep easy at night, as long as you know, you’re comfortable with what you’re contributing to society, as long as you’re happy with the impact you’re making, then in my mind, that would be making it.
And then I guess your second question about what does happiness mean? So obviously, Shelly used the word “abundant,” so I can’t use it.
But you know, it’s a simple term, it’s just like gratitude. But it’s a simple term that I think is so powerful, and that is “awareness.”
You know, it’s really about not just not getting sort of, I guess, what I would say is, it’s like, when you go to the museum, and you look at a painting when you when you get up close, there’s so many little dots, and there’s so many little details that you can really it can be overwhelming, can you imagine your brain trying to process all those individual pieces of stimulus.
Whereas when you stepped back you see this beautiful tapestry my art history lessons are kind of escapes me right now, but I think that’s impressionist painting, I can’t remember, I should know more, I guess, since my daughter is such an accomplished artist.
But the point is, it’s just about really seeing the forest for the trees. And that means not just kind of externally, but also internally. It’s about understanding the processes in your body, it’s about when you’re stressed out, not getting into that fight or flight response, that’s so easy to jump into, and sort of at quieting that reptilian brain, the primitive fight or flight response.
Nikhil
And so yeah, I mean, I think for me, that’s, that’s really what happiness means is looking at what you have looking at who you are. And just really taking stock of what God has given you, regardless of your religion. I mean, what God what the universe has provided for you, and really embracing the present. Dredging up the past, not getting depressed by your previous mistakes, or not, not conjuring up some doomsday scenario that might happen in the future. The bottom line is the present is a gift.
And so that’s cheesiness aside, my apologies, but that’s really kind of my key takeaways.
Saadia
I love it. Thank you so much, both of you, and we did it. Finally, with all the glitches, we were able to do this. I’m so glad. Is there a website people can go and find more information about your work, your book, your upcoming Hollywood project, your company, where can they go?
Nikhil
So yeah, there’s a couple. So the first I’d say, to learn about both of us would be shellysood.com. Then our podcast – is it’s on all the platforms, but I’d say the one that we tend to direct people to is theshellystory.com. Then our business is giostarchicago.com.
Saadia
Wonderful. Have a great rest of the day, guys.
Shelly
This was so much fun.
Nikhil
Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thanks so much.
Saadia
Take care. Bye bye.