Dr. Monica Kathuria, PsyD – Finding the “Right” Therapist

Nikhil

Hi, this is Nikhil coming to you from Chicago with The Shelly Story. My wife Shelly and I wrote a book and are currently working on a movie about our journeys with mental health, specifically bipolar disorder. As an offshoot of that, we’ve developed a podcast called The Shelly Story where we speak to people from a broad variety of backgrounds about diverse issues, most notably mental health. I’m very excited to speak to today’s guest, Monica Kathuria.

She and I have known each other for almost four decades. She’s got a great sense of humor and incredible wealth of knowledge and experience in clinical psychology. So we’re very thrilled to have her on the program. I’ll go ahead and tell you a little bit more about Monica’s background. Monica Kathuria, PsyD is a licensed clinical psychologist, and the CEO and founder of Encircle Wellness, an established private practice located in Chicago’s west loop, which focuses on mental health and wellbeing.

Monica has over 20 years of clinical therapy experience, and is passionate about helping people build strong relationships communicate more effectively, and become the best version of themselves. Monica works primarily with young adults, adolescents, and entrepreneurs who are struggling with relationships and communication issues, anxiety, depression, life transitions and family of origin and cultural impact on individuals and communities.

So Monica, it’s great to have you on the show. Can you tell us a little bit more about your background, adding a little bit anything to the summary that I may have provided?

Monica 

Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m super excited to sit here and talk with you. I’ve been hoping to do this with you for a long time. So in addition to what you shared, I actually was trained as a child and adolescent therapist in Chicago, and I went to New York, and I was there for many years, working with that population. But what’s interesting, it’s very different from the west population. This is like this is a very low income BIPOC, mostly Hispanic black population.

And so I then came back to Chicago and realized that I had gotten a lot of great experience with different communities and lots of challenges and different things that they were facing. So it really helps you understand how impactful our communities are on us as individuals.

Nikhil 

So it sounds like you’ve been doing this for about 20 years. But was growing up back at good old Maumee Valley back in Toledo. Was there anything along the way that maybe pushed you into that direction?

Monica

Yeah, it was my freshman year, I took a Psych 101 class and the information was so fascinating. And I didn’t realize that mental health was really this curiosity that was always there, until I was taking this class. And you’re saying like growing up and stuff like that? I think we see things, we hear things, and there’s that curiosity of like, well, we’re all sort of this way. Like, why are other people behaving this way, especially in our community, and really served notice. In our family, we have a difficult family member, and it was sort of like, but we’re all one way, this person is so very different. And I think that person just kind of stuck with me. And it was sort of what is going on here so it was that curiosity about people and how they interact with each other and how they operate.

Nikhil 

So what would you say is like the driving philosophy when you launched Encircle Wellness? And how do you feel that evolve over time?

Monica

I feel like a lot of people think when you go to therapy, it’s because you have to fix a problem, or crisis. And that’s why you need to go. You know, therapy is really more about becoming the best, best version of yourself. And so that’s more sort of our foundation. And we’re all different people are best for; like, my best version might be different than my best friend’s best version of themselves.

Nikhil 

And so subjective, right, it’s not like a one, there’s not a one size fits all, basically.

Monica

And so, that’s always been the foundation, I think how we’ve evolved is just sort of the needs of the community that we’re in, and what are people looking for. Encircle really is about encircling every aspect of your life: physical health, your community, everything. And so, we’ve always had that philosophy, but I think we’re focusing a lot on the mind body connection, and bring in a little bit more into our practice. So it’s more holistic.

Nikhil 

And I love the name because it’s interesting. I mean, and you might have this on your website, but when I think of a circle, I mean, first of all, I think of it as like, it’s a very welcoming kind of shape, I guess, right? Because when you look at squares, they’re very angular rectangles or triangles. But circles are very comforting. And when we’re kids, we gather in circles. And it’s more of like a nurturing, construct. And then also, when we talk about holistic, it’s not just about one specific item. It’s like a broad toolkit of how you manage your mental health, right? It’s not. And that’s Shelley and I, in our practice, it’s all about not just compartmentalized approach where it’s like, okay I have diabetes, or I have a knee disorder, it’s, it’s really about getting to the root of the problem and finding ways to optimize, like you said, the mind body health.

And that leads me to my next question because, obviously, looking at the calendar, May is Mental Health Awareness Month, right? There’s no shortage of discussion about strategies for managing our mental health. When I think about it, like I think like medication and cognitive behavioral therapy those are what I would consider table stakes in managing mental health those are really the bare minimum components. In your experience, like, what are some other elements of what I would call like a well balanced, healthy, like mental healthy diet? You know, what are? What are the five basic food groups? I guess you could say?

Monica 

No, I like that. I’d like that sort of takeaway for people to keep these things in mind and manage their wellness in the sense, I some of them we’ve already heard, we keep hearing it, we keep hearing it for a reason everyone’s saying you should exercise. Yeah, getting up. And moving is very important. And I’m not saying you know, get on the treadmill for 45 minutes, and do that four or five times a week, it could be a 30-minute stroll around the neighborhood. It’s just yeah, don’t be sedentary, right, get up and move your body. Because your endorphins start to move, and you start to think when we’re sitting too long, we’re sort of like, okay, I can’t do this anymore. Your body’s done, you get up and move, because that’s what you need.

So I think making sure that we’re exercising, in that sense, and moving our bodies helps, of course things like nutrition, it does affect your mood I think we’ve all noticed, there were some things that you’ve eaten put in your body, and you kind of feel sluggish, there are things that really just give you a lot of energy, and of course candles working, we should be enjoying these things, but just on a regular basis, making sure that you’re having those nutrients, because it does affect your mood. A big one that I think that our society skips over sometimes is sleep.

You know, definitely we praise people who are like, “oh I slept for five hours. And then I got up and I worked out and then went to work.

Nikhil 

Like a badge of honor.

Monica 

Right, a badge of honor that we’re all wearing. And after time, you start to realize you’re physically exhausted, you’re emotionally exhausted. And when you’re not getting enough sleep at some point, especially days on end. I’d have to work on this project. I can’t stop. You can’t become delusional at some point

I think we need to be more protective of our sleep, and making sure we’re progressing because it does affect that will.

Support is an important one, whether it’s family, whether it’s friends, whether it’s your therapist a co-worker, somebody. Life is not easy; it can be a lot of fun, but you know, it takes a lot of work. And sometimes we’re struggling. And it makes life a lot a lot easier to get through that support. So for people support too. That’s another reason to go find a therapist is. That’s what we’re there for.

Nikhil 

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, you hit it on the head, because I mean, in my personal experiences we you and I have talked about, I mean, I was I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Sleep – you hit it on the head, because I was thinking about, especially in the Indian community, from our parents generation they did their residency, they were, there’s always these tall tales of like I was doing residency I was curing cancer at the same time, I was still making Khichdi for the whole family. You know, it’s like, what do you have to complain about? And so I sort of inherited that mindset where it’s like sleep is for the weak, your decision making is really compromised. And your irritability is heightened.

So obviously, that’s going to impact your relationships, and you’re making bad choices. You’re, you’re sleeping poorly. And so what do you do to try to compensate? Well, you guzzle coffee, or you grab that Snickers bar, whatever it is, and then it’s just this it’s this perfect storm, like I said, with mental health awareness month. It’s something we all talk about, but I’m guilty of this as well. I mean, it’s something that we really struggle to put into practice, right.

Monica 

Yeah. Like you’re saying that these foundations, I think another big one that we sort of overlooked because we feel like we don’t have time stopping slowing down and being in the calm loads of work and what’s your COVID restrictions, lifting people, you know socializing, and there’s just always like, well, I’ve got this going on, I’ve got this, I’ve gotta go this. If, if we don’t stop, then our bodies are agitated or anxious, and our minds are constantly going and you feel unsettled.

And so I think it’s important to make it a daily practice. 30 minutes of calm and calling it Yeah. Yoga, or reading a book, or sitting quietly listening to soothing music, something making, just being mindful, even I think the best time to sometimes it’s at the end of the day, before you get to see, but any time of day, it’s important when you’re starting to when you’re starting to feel your body is getting agitated or anxious.

Nikhil 

Definitely, definitely. Yeah it’s interesting because in, in the US, like I said, it’s always that hustle culture. And sometimes I think we could learn a lot from other cultures, like, especially in Spain, they have like this, they still have the siesta. Like, Shelley, she used to work at Accenture, and she had a team that was in Madrid. And literally every day at two, they were like, auto failover, because they had the siesta time. And it’s just, you just think about all the implications, like how much less conflict there would be when people are poorly rested, you tend to make mountains out of molehills, or they, they’re not paying attention. I mean, it’s just amazing.

The spearpoint the power of pause, you mentioned the word calm. And I want to talk about that a little bit. Because there is actually an app called calm, which I’m sure you’re familiar with. There’s there’s apps like calm, there’s apps like headspace. And it’s so interesting, because I think technology can really help in this regard, because of those apps like Calm. And then the other thing is the power of community. Like, there’s a lot of times where you’ll come across a YouTube video, you’ll come across some idea that resonates with you. And it’s not like when we were growing up, or how how would you reach out to somebody in Mumbai, to get on a podcast? You know, first of all, that didn’t exist back then. Yeah, you had to do 2am Call and like arey, can you hear me? Can you hear me

But I’m just bringing that up, because it’s such a double edged sword. Because through social media, I was able to connect with somebody who started a platform and a community for people with bipolar disorder in India. It’s a gentleman named Vijay Nallawala, I interviewed him a couple months ago, and he started bipolar India. Yeah. So I mean, I personally, just the potential is just incredible. And that’s really why we launched this podcast was to help bring those voices to the forefront. You know, the flip side of that is there’s doomscrolling, and it’s like a slow drip, right? You just sit there, and you absorb all these horrific events in the UK in Ukraine and things about COVID. And then also, there’s the whole FOMO thing, right, where you’re looking at people’s stories about their trips to Aruba or making partner at their firm.

What’s your thought about social media? I mean, what you’re seeing with clients, and maybe, how are you advising them, I guess, and how to position technology within their mental health regimen.

Monica 

Now, it’s interesting, a lot of people get it, they get that social media can really bring you down. And, but they have a really hard time. And so there’s that awareness. Like, that’s the first. But then it’s sort of, it’s always there. It’s the FOMO, and people can’t stop. Sometimes, if you know, we can say take it, take a social media break. And people, it can get even more anxious, because they’re like, What am I? What did I miss what’s going on?

And sometimes I wonder if it’s more about filling your Instagram feed with something that is so benign or something that is uplifting, something that is going to take you away from all these negative things that start to come up and you’re feeling like I’m missing out on something or I’m not doing as well as they How did I do that?

And you know, you’re happy for people, but then you’re also sort of it brings you down, like, I’m not good enough. I can’t Why? Why can I do what they’re doing? So sometimes it’s sort of like, okay, you’re not going to stop looking. We can’t make you stop looking. And you’re just getting more anxious about it. Maybe we maybe we do fill your feet with things that are going to be more uplifting.

Nikhil 

I was talking to Shelly the other day. I’m like wouldn’t it be nice to go back 20 years before we had all this stuff when accessing technology like AOL getting on? AOL was such an amazing thing; I remember like, you find You’d spend like, five minutes and you finally hear that connection sound. And then you’ve got mail. And it was like this amazing event, whereas now it’s too much of a good thing.

But what I tried to do is just maintain the perspective that there’s so much more information. And I think if we, if we’re thoughtful about it, if we really take a measured approach, maybe restrict our time, then it you know, it can be effective. It’s like anything, it’s like, like we were talking about earlier sugar or alcohol or what have you.

Monica 

And you know, a lot of people use it because they need a break, that’s our calm, it’s sort of, I need to take a break from all of these things that are going on, let me just mindlessly scroll. But you know, to pay attention to how you’re feeling when you’re scrolling. Are you? Are you really feeling more relaxed? Or are you starting to get a little anxious? And like you said, finding things that are going to be more helpful than hopeful?

Nikhil 

Yeah, I mean, for Aliya, for daughter, it’s been great, because for her art, I think she’s been able to reach out to people all over the country, and she’s actually been able to sell some of her artwork, and I’m knock on wood, I’m very grateful that I think she’s, she’s probably got a healthier perspective on social media than I do. Like, she’ll post stuff. And she doesn’t care about likes, or comments or whatever, it’s just sort of like, it’s something that’s it’s a nice to have. So that’s all Shelley that has nothing to do with me.

I wanted to talk to you also about the cultural aspect, because obviously, you and I are South Asians, we come from a pretty well accomplished demographic high achieving. But obviously that introduces challenges as a therapist, like, how has culture played into maybe the services you provide? Is your client base pretty diverse? Or are there a lot of people that yourself your cultural background has, has helped you forge a deeper connection with or maybe you’re more cognizant of the issues you might face? And maybe talk to me a little bit about sort of how culture has played into your practice and in circle? And then also, this is a pretty broad question, we could probably spend a whole other episode on this, but maybe your thoughts about South Asian mental health, the status of that at the current time?

Monica 

I think this is a really important question about culture. Because it is incredibly important. And I’m not talking about just culture, meaning ethnicity, it’s also we all are a part of some other different kinds of culture, like you said we come from a community of very successful parents are very successful, I just, that’s, that’s another community that we’re a part of, and that’s its own culture.

And so we very much focus on that person’s culture, whatever that might mean to them. I do have when South Asians reach out, there’s, they are specifically asking for me, they don’t want to see somebody else, because they do want somebody who understands, and they don’t want to explain the different aspects of it, because you know, we just get it important.

But I also think it’s important, if you don’t understand the culture, as a therapist, it’s our job to figure out, understand the culture, learn about it, and ask people about their experience with it, because it does shape who we are, it impacts the decisions that we make, like I said, go off to college and American, South Asian, there’s, in this country my parents are professionals. That’s what I’m supposed to do. Right. And that really made an impact on my life.

So I feel like it’s important to look at the person’s culture and understand it. I think in South Asian culture we’ve all experienced growing up, and it’s sort of like, if you’re struggling with something, you you go to a family member, and you go to the community because they can help you. And while yes, they are wise, they’ve had many experiences, but they don’t always have the answers.

Nikhil 

So your bias, I mean, think about it, right? Because, and this is related to my experience. I mean my dad is was a psychiatrist, my mom, we never got an official diagnosis, but a lot of the behaviors that she was showing were indicative of bipolar disorder. And people always asked me, they say, “Well, your dad was a psychiatrist, and he wasn’t able to see it?” And there’s that detachment, right? Because it’s like, you’re seeing people with problems all day. The last thing you want to do is come home and you know, you try to think of it as a safe space. You don’t want to think about that. It lives at home, right? So, but that’s, I mean, that’s my own particular experience.

But to your point, I mean, when families come together, there’s that, especially in the South Asian, it’s all coded but I find it especially in South Asian A community, it’s this almost this sense of shame. And it’s almost like this, if my son has it, or if my wife has it, what does that say about me? And also what are? What are the people at the temple gonna think? Do you feel like that’s gotten better? Do you think that’s still pretty predominant?

Monica 

I think it still exists unfortunately, I do think it’s gotten better. Yeah. You know, we’re dealing with our parents generation, they come from this mindset. And so that’s that a lot of lot of our kids worry about that. Right? We worry about how are they going to think about this. And some, I think a lot of our parents have evolved, a lot of the community has evolved and has a better understanding, but there is still that stigma.

And I think we still struggle with it in our community. And it does impact people. And sometimes I hear these stories, and I’m like, I’ll be back Community Center. We thinking this way, but it’s, it’s still happening. And it’s it’s heartbreaking to hear that still happening in our community. I was gonna say, like, what you and Shelly are doing, it’s, it’s amazing. It’s exactly what our community needs is to hear these stories and understand that you, okay, you struggle with bipolar, there’s nothing wrong with you. This is something that can be managed.

And you know, we’ve known each other for a very long time. And there’s a lot of incredible aspects of you that people could overlook, because you’ve got this label. Oh, he’s bipolar, oh, that means certain things that can’t be successful. You can’t say all these negative things. It’s like, no, that’s not who you are at all. Yeah. And that’s why it’s insecurity. Yeah.

Nikhil 

And I mean, support has been vital to that. It’s not just support, but it’s also taking, I always like to call it like the Marie Kondo approach to your relationships. I’ll be straight up here. I mean, this is how my parents are, where it’s just like, their happiness is really determined by the number of people in their circle, where it’s just about how many people that I talked to at the temple? Or how many people did we go on that last vacation with?

I’ve taken a contrarian view where it’s just like, if there’s people in my relationships in my circle that are not constructive or not healthy influences, then, if they really don’t serve me, then there’s no purpose and going along to get along. And so obviously, our circle has shrunk a little bit.

But at the end of the day, I mean, we’re spending more time with our kids more quality time, and not just getting after them for not making varsity tennis or which is what a lot of these conversations really are about didn’t it’s so funny, you say that it’s like, it does feel like you know, back in the 80s, a lot of times we would think that we would have learned from a lot of the failings of our parents, they did a lot of great things, but a lot of the things that affected us that we know it did, and a lot of people are still doing that with their kids. I mean, you find that that’s happening?

Monica 

Oh, absolutely. They’re bragging about how advanced their child is in XYZ. And it’s like, when they’re thinking about schools and thinking about are my child is she’s in first grade. Yeah it’s there are people in the community who are looking at the graduating class and saying, Well, how many of them are going to an Ivy League school?

Monica 

It’s sort of like, what do they want to do? And how do we help them succeed in what they want to do? They don’t need to, they don’t need to go to an Ivy League school to question that they want to do you know, and so it’s sort of like, but they’re so they’re so young. And there’s already that pressure and competition, and it’s, it’s unhealthy.

So I do, what you’re saying is you shrink down your community, to people that are going to be beneficial, and who are going to be like minded and share the same values, because then you start to see your quality of life is better. Yeah, happier, you’re feeling lighter, you’re feeling more connected to the people that you’re surrounding yourself.

Nikhil 

When I think of my kids, and I compare like their because they have to in high school, and I think about their experience, versus what I was going through. I remember in high school, my main focus was, how many parties am I going to? Or how many friends do I have in my circle or stupid things? Like I remember our yearbook putting together like, how many pictures do I have on my senior page that that ridiculous stuff? And my kids like couldn’t care less about that like, it’d be so easy for them to look at other people’s Facebook pages or Instagram posts and my daughter would you know, rather watch Kai you know, I’m drawing a blank. It’s not some cartoon with our eight year old son and I mean, I feel that’s a win. I feel that not sort of imposing this template of what success looks like what’s social and career success looks like you know where it’s something, it’s more sustainable.

Monica 

It’s interesting, because you’re talking about back in the day when you were in high school, how many of you have in the parents? How many people did we hang out and talk to at the temple and all that thing, social media, how many likes do I have? It’s not stopped. It continues to happen. And so we have to just in a different form. So we have to be a part of helping our kids, the next generation understand that it’s not about the quality. It’s not about the quantity. It’s the quality. Right?

Nikhil 

Definitely. Yeah. I wanted to turn it on over to you, actually, because I think you would had some questions for me, and I’d love to answer them. If you’re if your game.

Monica 

Yeah, I mean, being South Asian. And also sort of, like you said, sort of growing up in this community, where we don’t talk about our struggles, we just kind of keep showing putting our best self forward, I’m curious, what prompted you to sort of decide you want to go to therapy.

Nikhil 

So as I mentioned before, and as you know, I mean, my father was a psychiatrist. And so you would think that with that in the blood, you would think that I would have this natural inclination towards seeking mental health. But I had not a very good relationship with therapy growing up, I got in my share of trouble in high school, and I would have to go to the therapist.

And a lot of it was just punishment. I really felt that a lot of it was “Did your parents did your dad not take you to a baseball game or a Mudhens game,” or “did your mom not give you a pat on the back for that 100% on the biology test?” or whatever.

So honestly growing up, I did not have a very good view of therapy. And it’s also because it was positioned as this corrective or punitive response to a bad action like, I would get in trouble like I would. Those are, those records are sealed, we won’t go into that. But I would be hidden, like trouble for something. And I would always have to go talk to someone. And then you know, the teachers would say, is everything okay, at home. So it was almost like this conditioned response, where therapy was seen as this almost like detention.

So I really had a very dim view of therapy for a long time. What was interesting was, and we talked about this in the book, is that in business school, so this was like, in around 2009, or so I was going to a very competitive business school, University of Chicago, I was working a full time job managing a team in India. And we just had our second kid. So I had a four year old and a four month old.

And what’s interesting is we talked to both sets of parents, Shelley’s parents had a little bit less of a enlightened view of therapy, I’ll be quite honest. And a lot of times, it was always like just got to have a positive attitude, just walk it off, kind of like that was because that was what they did in their day, they didn’t really have the luxury of the tools that we have in that awareness. But my dad being a psychiatrist, they were actually looking at it as depression, which is, as you know, I mean, that is just, that’s like taking a match and putting it off dumping some gasoline on a pile of hugs and lighting it because there was the way it was being addressed was with antidepressants. So without a mood stabilizer that just took a bad situation made it explosive.

So that really, I would say between, like for five years or so, that was a very disruptive time because the condition was being treated with medication that would only make it worse. And then I think this it’s funny, we were I think, initially when we talked about having this discussion was about finding the right therapist. And that kind of segues into that. The problem was, I did not have a good therapist at the time.

A therapist is not your cheerleader, a therapist is not your groupie, a therapist is somebody who is supposed to shine a mirror onto you, and basically give an objective view about what’s going on. Granted, there’s limitations because they’re only with you for an hour, or maybe more if you have multiple sessions in a week.

But the problem was when you’re in a manic state, it was really “The Nikhil Show” 24/7. So I’m really talking about speaking at conferences, or I’m talking about some deal I just signed or you know, just headline grabbing stuff, but I’m not talking about the fact that I have no relationship with my kids because I’m constantly on my phone. Or I’m not talking about how I’m not attending to my wife’s needs, being a mother at home, taking care of two kids.

I’m tuning all that out because of a lot of the symptoms of bipolar disorder, I firsthand witness the real negative impact of having for shorthand is really to just call it a bad therapist someone who is not presenting like a second opinion, or, or who’s not seeking the input of your loved ones right, seeking the input of just seeing what’s in front of them. And it’s almost like munching popcorn and watching the drama unfold.

Monica 

So not being helpful. But yeah, you need a therapist who’s going to challenge you, and I’m not like in a harsh way, that kind of nudging you a bit. And helping you I get where sometimes it takes time, people can’t get there right away. And so we are patient with that. But we can’t stop challenging you to get to that different place and kind of seeing other things that might be going on. So yeah, therapists that’s kind of sitting there munching on their popcorn, like, “yeah, yeah, that’s great. Yeah, you’re the best!”

Nikhil 

Almost like they’re watching a reality show in person.

Monica 

it’s not helpful, and it, it was detrimental for you. I do think it’s important to shop around bunch of therapists, we always got most of us, if not all of us offer at least a quick two minute free consultation. So you can talk to that person to get a feel for what their style is, and get a feel for how they work and ask some questions.

But I know this is a big part of your story, too, is getting input from other people. Because we can only work with what is people coming to therapy presenting. And so if we don’t have the full picture, we can’t then do the best job that we can do.

I mean sort of along this idea of somebody having bipolar and that being missed there’s a teenager that I was working with who legitimately she does, she has ADHD, she did something impulsive, she didn’t talk about it, because she didn’t think anything of it, and talk with her mom, because I am in contact when I work with children and adolescents and was in contact with the parents and the moms like, oh, yeah, she did XYZ. And I was like, we put it in context.

And you realize this could be signs of early bipolar disorder. There’s bipolar in the family. Yeah the teenager is not telling you this, the mother is telling you this, and the behavior that was exhibited we have to be able to tease apart what’s going on. But I didn’t have that information from a wouldn’t have known about this behavior. But even if she mentioned it to me about like, Okay, what’s impulsive? It’s because ADHD, and write something that it’s not. And so it is incredibly important to get other input other information.

Nikhil 

What’s crazy about my situation, I mean, I had to go into inpatient hospitalization. And at that point I was really at rock bottom, because, uh I’d lost my job I had we had filed for divorce, we were really, I was no joke, I mean, almost at death’s door. And the therapist, actually, with the input that I was presenting, and I wasn’t being deceitful or anything, I was just telling him how I felt. They actually diagnosed it almost diagnosed as depression. And it was actually like, had I been on my own, basically, this would have been starting the clock over.

Basically we’re just basically repeating history over and over so that getting Shelley’s input, just giving the context, I think, is what was able to turn things around and prevent the cycle of dysfunction and misery from repeating itself.

Monica 

I’m sure this was addressed in the book, but I think, yeah, Shelley was amazing. She didn’t stop, she was very persistent. I have information to share, I have information to share. And from what I what she was saying is people were not listening to her. And rightfully so, like somebody can’t we can’t say, Yes, we work with this person, but I did tell her find out who psychiatrist is, and send them the information. I know, you can’t confirm or deny that this person is a patient of yours.

But if they are, here’s some information. I know that your therapist kind of sounds like she wasn’t necessarily listening to what Shelly had to say, but kudos to her for being persistent because it did help. It saved your life. Yeah. No, sure. No, there’s that other information that’s incredibly important. And it helps get you to the, to the right diagnosis, and now, you’re able to live the life that you’ve always been wanting to do. Right. And visitors. I do think it’s important to hear from you know, people are like, Is that weird? My mom they’re in their 20s If my mom comes to the session, I’m like, No, bring her I want to hear what she has to say?

Nikhil 

In your experience, have you seen similar instances like that where you’re on one, you’re on one track in terms of the house you’re devising a treatment plan, and then you get more information. And that can adjust. You meant you alluded to it a little bit earlier. But I’m curious, like, do you see that a lot, where then you bring in the parents or the sibling or whatever, for context, does that tend to change the trajectory.

Monica 

It can, especially in this case, it was sort of like we got, we need to keep an eye on this. And this develops more, or if it was something else, I do think it’s incredibly important, because it can change the information, it can change how we work with this person.

The unfortunate thing is with adults, we don’t get other information, we just get what they have to say there are times that people come in, and they’re talking about their significant other and you know, and I’m like, you’re welcome to bring them in for a session, or I’m happy to meet with them to hear what they have to say, because it helps give them a different perspective.

You know, you’re sitting there on the couch, you’re talking about all these things, and your significant other comes in and you’re like they’re really, they’re putting themselves down, but their spouse sees them a different way. Sure. And then it helps you realize, like, what do you what are we working with here, and so I’m always happy to hear from other people in that person’s life. Yeah, we can only work with what comes into the room and what is being presented.

Nikhil 

And I’m sure it’s a slippery slope, right, because as with your clients, you obviously want to maintain confidentiality, you want them to feel that they feel secure sharing information with you. But a lot of times, you’re working with a limited view of the patient or the client. And that’s actually what I talked about with a friend of mine, on one of our previous episodes, he developed an app where therapists can actually it’s an SMS based app, where a patient’s family or friends or peers can basically provide input to the therapist and like an inner it’s an app that I think would be really would be super helpful to give the full 360-degree view.

Monica 

Now, as a therapist, we tease apart the information, and we kind of put the pieces back together and figure out what’s going on. Like sometimes you do have people who are afraid that their sibling might say something, or their spouse might say something that you don’t really want to talk about it. Because once you say it out loud, then you have to deal with it. And so I can see why people get nervous about it. But like you said, you need to be challenged, right? You can’t just sit and have it be the Nikhil Show all the time. Okay, leave a challenge.

And it’s again, it’s unfortunate with adults, we don’t get other information with children, adolescents we have to get consent from the guardian or the parent. And I’m always in touch with them. And I ask them to be a part of sharing information. And so it’s different with children, adolescents, because the parent is involved with adults, other adults are not necessarily evolved. Love this idea of this app where you can share information.

Nikhil 

You know, obviously, both you and I are South Asian, and meditation and mindfulness are becoming really big, very mainstream. Are you adopting any of those Eastern principles into your practice, like in terms of advising your clients to try some meditation or any other Eastern philosophies that maybe aren’t as, quote unquote, mainstream?

Monica 

I guess I try not to use the word “meditation.” I feel like it’s become a buzzword, and people now are kind of rolling their eyes that Oh, I heard this before. And I think that’s why I’m using a different language. Maybe it’s calm, quiet, no downtime. But it’s that same idea of sitting with quiet and sitting sometimes it’s sitting with your thoughts. Sometimes people can’t handle sitting with themselves. Yeah, I say maybe yoga because it it’s, it’s, it’s a practice that does help calm your body helps you calm your mind.

So I think we are incorporating it. But try not to use buzzwords getting people to serve like meditation is centuries old. Yeah, it’s stuck around for a reason. Right? And so to honor that, and again, when such busy lives that we’re like, I don’t have time for this. I don’t have time I don’t have time. We have 30 minutes you can make that go to pick up my daughter from school. I will leave minutes ahead of time, so I can sit in the car quietly, without music without somebody trying to get a hold of me for something and it’s my quiet time. You know, it’s how I incorporate it. So I do a little bit different.

Nikhil 

Yeah. Yeah, the Calm app I’ve found is really good. I mean, there’s one guy, Jay Shetty. I don’t know if you’ve? Yeah, first of all, he’s our generation. Second of all, I think it’s more I guess, real world oriented, because he’s actually worked in the corporate world. And he’s also been a monk. So it’s a very interesting combination of perspective.

I wanted to make sure because I think you would have had some other things you wanted to ask me. I wanted to make sure we got to them as well.

Monica 

Yeah, I mean, I guess I was curious, just a little bit about, and you kind of touched on it. But you know, your experience sitting with your therapist, because you stayed with her for a while. And so I guess I was wondering what your experience was. I know, when you’re in a manic state, it’s sort of like, oh, at the time.

But I’m wondering just for like, did you have this sense that something was off? Because I think our guts never gonna steer us wrong. And if you’re sitting in the room with somebody, and you’re feeling uneasy, yeah, it’s time to sort of think like, is this the right? fit for me?

Nikhil 

That’s great. That’s a great question. I never stopped to think about that. But to your point about the guts never going to steer us wrong, the man of God is a very different animal. Because the “manic gut” is always seeking validation.

And so always, any view to the contrary is really looked down upon this is right after I finished my MBA, I’m talking about going to get my JD, or I’m talking about starting a company or buying a spa, just all kinds of grandiose visions.

And people rightfully are people who are in my corner, like Shelley or her parents, or even my parents at the time, saying, “Whoa, slow down there tiger, you might be biting off more than you can chew. “

Then you have a therapist who’s saying, “that’s great! Pat on the back to you, and I think you’re doing great.” It was, I don’t want to say self-fulfilling prophecy, but I guess it kind of was because you’re seeking that validation. And if you’ve got somebody patting you on the back, who’s taking you down a bad road, then you know that that’s going to resonate with you more, and that can be very destructive, I got to believe there are therapists who go into this profession for the wrong reason. It’s like, they want to be the hero where it’s like, patients are coming to them with a problem. And this is what I saw a lot early on, in my experience with therapy, where it’s like, I’d go, and I’d be like, well I’m not doing well in classes or their stuff that’s like in the here and now.

And always 9 times out of 10. It was always, well, how did your parents make you feel about that? You know? So there was that there was that desire to be the hero, right? There was that desire to be a solution in search of a problem?

So so that I would say, to your point, to your question earlier about how did it feel when I was manic to have that? I mean, again, shorthand just call it a bad therapist. It was it was like, it was a highlight of the week, because it was almost like, like I said, it was the Nikhil show and having like a one man audience it was, it was it was, like nothing else.

Monica 

Well, how did you find her? I’m curious how you found her.

Nikhil 

I think it was just I’d switched jobs, and I was looking on what therapists were covered by my insurance and she popped up and I this is something I do have to say is that degrees degrees are not the be all end all and I gotta be honest, I was a little bit of a stop, because I saw there were like, probably five or six. And I think in terms of location, but also the fact that she was the only one with this ID.

Because there were other ones with like an MA. And I have a therapist right now who has an MA and and LCPC. And she’s phenomenal. And I think that’s something I do want to bring up also is just that people need to check their ego at the door. I had another psychiatrist who I think had trained at Columbia or was at Northwestern, but she was the worst therapist of all time also because it was like, she much like this other therapist.

I wasn’t sleeping. I regularly I was indulging in really bad behaviors. And her response was “I think there’s nothing wrong with you. The only thing is you have a crazy family.” No joke, this is literally what she said. I would always look at her degree as a reflection of her competence as a therapist, when in fact, it was the worst.

So yeah, I think that’s another thing when people are looking for the right therapist, they need to not just look at the ratings, not not just look at that, that can be important, not just look at the degree or where they went to school. But is it a right fit?

Monica 

And so I think it’s great that you have like a screening process. It’s a it’s a two way street, you’re assessing them, and they’re assessing us to make sure that around, right, because it’s just talking to that person, you can you can tell whether or not that somebody, you need to be able to be your authentic self. Exactly what that person. And if you can’t pick that up in the first 15 minutes of talking to them, it’s not the right person for you. Right?

Nikhil 

Has it been the other way around, where you’ve had instances where someone might come to you and you’re, you’re, you’re for whatever reason, you can’t you’re like, I can’t help you?

Monica 

Same thing, sometimes we feel, it could be whatever they’re, maybe they’re coming in with something that we struggle with ourselves. And so we’re going to be biased, we can’t be. And so I think that’s what practice is saying, Sorry, I can’t help you. It could be a cultural thing, you know. So you need to feel comfortable talking with this person about their culture, or their political views or something like that.

So for us, there are times where we don’t feel like we’re the best fit, because you can’t help them in a way that they would like, help. And so it’s not fair for us to say, “well, okay, if you’re gonna pay me, I’ll see you.” That’s not how it should be working. And it should be, and I hope this person, and if I feel like I can help them, then yes, let’s do this. But if I feel like I’m not skilled, and being able to help them, right, for them to help them.

Nikhil 

There’s been such a great discussion, Monica. It’s so nice to hear your insights. And I know, we talked about a lot of other things off offline. But you know, this, it’s great to talk about an issue. That’s so important. And I think what I always say is it’s these discussions that have really helped shatter the stigma, and I think, give people with our profile whether they’re in the South Asian community, or professionals that will give them a little bit of a different insight into what they’re facing.

And just give them a little bit clearer path really towards mental well-being, it’s a neverending journey, really, it’s not something that you can put a stake in the ground and say, Hey, I’ve I found mental wellness. And that’s kind of going back, I’m sure this ties into the Encircle philosophy, right, where it’s a circular thing. It’s just never a fixed point in time. So I really do appreciate it.

Monica 

Do you get it? But yeah, it’s important to kind of continue with the mental. I mean, there’s so many people over the years, they sort of come in and have this issue that they’ve wanted to sort of work through, they work through it, and then something else comes up.

And some years later, they’re like, “Hey, can I come back? I want to talk to you a little bit about this.” So it’s nice to have that touch point you can connect with? And then over the years there are people that will, I haven’t heard from for three years, and then I’ll come back and they’re like, hey, this big thing happened.

And I think I think one of the things that we that you sort of alluded to, that we didn’t really kind of dive into, but I did want to touch upon is I think you said, you go to therapist and they talk bout your family. And that’s, that’s why you’re struggling.

I do think it’s important that we do get that childhood history from people. It’s, it does shaped who we are, and we don’t need to stay there. But I think it’s helpful to have that information. It does impact us. I mean, there are times that people will come in and say, they’re sitting in a meeting at work, and they’re trying to share some ideas and nobody’s listening to them. And then you’re like, “Oh, well, I know you grew up you’re the sixth child. And then everybody else had a chance to sort of find their voice and they’re all of our feelings are louder than you. And so of course, I can see you getting triggered.”

And so we don’t stay there we touch upon, and they’re like, Oh, that makes sense. We definitely I definitely get the childhood history. And when I talk to young adults history, and family history, relationship history, because they do affect us. Yeah, stay with us. And it’s just to get it’s, it’s because it helps us see what’s happening today. Why are we getting triggered? How did that experience impacting like I said, we don’t stay there.

Nikhil 

It gives you the context. These problems don’t exist in a vacuum.

Monica 

Right, exactly. I think sometimes people like, “why are we waiting? Why are we talking about this? We want to rush.” We’re in a culture where everything’s immediate. And I kind of want to rush to the end. And sort of, well, there’s a process here, and we need this information that can help us. And when they’re able to give that information, then you can make that connection for them. They’re like, Oh, this makes sense. And then they’re better able to decide, okay, well, what techniques are going to work for me? And then you see the change, you start to see the progress. And they’re, they’re like, this feels better. It just feels so good. To know, which direction?

Nikhil 

Was there anything else you wanted to? Maybe go back and elaborate on if there’s anything else you wanted to cover?

Monica 

This was a really rich discussion, I’m glad we got a chance to do it. We’ve always talked a lot about things that different, like you said, different topics, it’s nice to sort of get really in depth with some of these things. But I do feel like we covered a lot of this. I think it is important to find that right therapist, and when we say right therapist, right for you?

Nikhil 

Right, there’s not a one size fits all, it’s very personalized. Yeah.

Monica 

And like you said, just because of their degree, it doesn’t matter. It’s, again, shopped around, talk to different people do that free consultation let them know what you’re looking for. Ask them questions about their style. Allow your family members and your friends have a conversation. Like we don’t disclose information it is confidential. But if somebody wants to share something to share it, because it does help us better. And I’m glad that you are able to finally find the right combination for you. Because as attest to how important it is.

Nikhil 

Yeah, no, I consider myself very lucky in a lot of ways. I did want to throw this up here. If people want to get a hold of you, for people listening, but if people are watching this, the website is encirclew.com. And then on Instagram, you’re @encirclewellness. And you’re located where again?

Monica 

We are in the West Loop, at Clinton and Jefferson. We’re in person and we’re virtual.

Nikhil 

Yep. Okay. Well, thanks again. Monica was really great speaking with you. I’m sure we’ll have more of these discussions down the road and really appreciate all the insight and time you offer.

Monica 

Yeah, and I appreciate you having me and being able to have this discussion.