Jeff Brown – Patented Inventor, App Strategist, “The Bipolarist,” Mental Health Advocate

Nikhil 

Hey everyone, this is Nikhil Torsekar coming to you from Chicago with The Shelly Story. My wife Shelly and I wrote a book and are working on a screenplay of our story and our journey with bipolar disorder. Five years ago, I had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, after about two decades of going through the disorder on an undiagnosed basis. And it was really my wife, Shelly, who helped me face to music, seek treatment, and helped me get on the road to recovery. So very fortunate about that.

And as an offshoot of that, we launched a platform called The Shelly Story, which is a podcast where we have discussions with folks in the mental health space on a variety of different levels; everything from practitioners, to folks with the disorder, and then folks who have helped come up with strategies for managing disorder. So we’ve talked about Ayurveda, we’ve talked about meditation. But today’s guest I’m very excited about; his name is Jeff Brown. He and I actually met on Twitter spaces, which is a new platform for people to engage on a variety of different topics.

So he and I chatted, and then we continued the dialogue offline. And I just thought it’d be really interesting, because he has a very interesting story and platform; I thought it’d be great to have him on the show, just talk to him about his background and talked about his experiences. So Jeff, really excited to have you here. Thanks so much for offering your time.

Jeff

Definitely, Nikhil, thank you so much for having me on the show. Like you said, we met on Twitter Spaces, which is awesome. I love that feature of the of the platform. But this is something that I’ve been doing online and offline: advocating for people with serious mental illness and bipolar disorder, learning more and sharing what I’ve experienced in terms of mental health and illness, and neurodiversity. So I’m happy to have the conversation. My name is Jeff Brown, but I go by The Bipolarist online.

Nikhil 

Yeah. So Jeff, thanks. Thanks so much; I think it’d be very helpful if you could just give us a walkthrough of your background; what brought you to this position you’re in right now, which is going to be for bipolar advocacy? And also just, I guess, as they say, your “day job;” what you’re doing professionally.

Jeff

Gladly. So I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder at 21. Back in college; I’m almost 40 now, and have had an academic and professional career that was quite colorful. I’ve been a salesperson, I’ve been a chess coach, I’m a product manager, I’ve been an entrepreneur in the past. Now I’m looking into getting into more neurodiversity and bipolar activist, and getting into mental health and fighting stigma. That’s something that I’m mostly transitioning into now. But yeah, product ownership, product management, my moniker online, as far as my tech career, has been an app strategist.

So I’m someone that works in mobile applications, helping define and design and deliver features to mobile apps, for enterprises and founders, and other folks who just want to get an app out. So that’s something I’ve been doing for the past eight years. I’m also a patented inventor, and I was fortunate to be able to work with the patent program at Capital One, and get a couple of patents through the USPTO. So something I was really proud of, that I always wanted to do, was to get become an inventor. And now that I am it’s just looking into transitioning into a new part of my career, where I get to speak more about my personal experiences as someone with this condition, and neurodivergence, and all the things that I’ve experienced through the mental health paradigm, and as it stands today in the medical model of mental health, and disability in the United States.

Nikhil 

Great, great. It’s very heartening to see that mental health is getting a lot more focus these days, with platforms such as Twitter Spaces, there’s all kinds of online communities like BPhope there’s Psych Central, NAMI is a big one. So there’s definitely a lot of awareness that’s increasing. But at the same time, I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding and apprehension; and it’s a black box when it comes to bipolar disorder. Because I think sometimes people think, “is it – you’re happy one day, you’re sad the next? Are you difficult to deal with?” Obviously, I think the Hallmark signs would be periods of dizzying heights, followed by incapacitating lows. Can you talk briefly about what bipolar looked like for you.

Jeff

I think that for me, my symptoms of this mood disorder manifested in high school. I had pretty extreme irritability, I was easily agitated. And I think what I was going through was like a mixed state. So we talked about some times with bipolar, where I would be very anxious, which I didn’t really understand as a symptom or feeling, or emotion for a long time, up until recently. But I was just so frustrated and impatient. And it seemed like I was talking a million miles a minute, like I was hyperfunctioning, when it came to things that I was interested in. And that sort of trended as I got deeper and deeper into high school, and then into college.

And what really made it clear to me that my brain was working differently than other people’s was in college, I started to research time; my experience of time was accelerating. What I noticed at the beginning of the semester when all the activity of back then like adding and dropping courses and changing classrooms, and teachers, and so on, and all the different activities about this and excitement that comes at the beginning of the semester. And then as I got into midterms, and toward the end of the semester, particularly in the fall, I would start to get depressed; I would be overwhelmed; I’d get stressed out. And then I’d be withdrawn and reclusive. And my sense of time would slow to a crawl.

So this is something that liked me for when I was in college for nine years, made me throughout. And it wasn’t until I got on these medications for bipolar disorder – which is a pretty colorful path to get to that – did I start to stabilize. And eventually, about my seventh year into college, I got on an ADHD medication, which helped me tremendously and helped me graduate thereafter, very quickly, taking more credits than I’ve ever taken. You know, I’ve been on my cocktail medication for all of about six months in my adult life. I’m almost 40 now. And I had a pretty colorful career as well professionally; I started off as a chess coach in college.

Nikhil 

Sorry, did you did you say you started out as a chess coach?

Jeff

Yeah, so when I transferred schools to home, after getting diagnosed, I came home, to live with my parents. And then I also transferred schools to George Mason University. And when I was in school there, it was a commuter school, primarily. It was a big commuter school; they didn’t have a lot of on campus housing. So I was commuting from home about a half hour away or so. And I needed ways to make friends. So I started the chess club. And then I found out over the course of my tenure at George Mason, that there was a huge population of chess heads. And like people that studied were even titled players on campus. We actually found an international master; our professor was an international who became our advisor. We found people with national master candidate master and like feeder master titles. But we were a very competitive club and team; we made a name for ourselves on the east coast. So we did really well what about the state championships and you know, I got the chance to teach some elementary school kids down to down the street at Fairview Elementary. It was probably the most rewarding job in my life, to be honest. We taught those kids how to play chess for about five years after school. So I was a chess coach at first and I went on to work for my parents, they had a heating and air conditioning firm for about 40 or 42 years, and I came in at about year 39.

So I went to work as a sales engineer, helping people understand learn more about how to replace their their heating and air conditioning systems and helping them design those in going into people’s homes and measuring and surveying and but quickly started to transition into more my wheelhouse, which is tech and IT and marketing. So I took over a lot of responsibilities for my mother and stepfather and worked with my stepbrother to just run the business, helping my parents retire. And I got to work as sort of like a little “mini executive” at a small business from very early on, like my first real full-time gig.

And so that that experience really defined the trajectory of my careers. I’ve always felt like a like a leader. And yeah, the Founder Mentor, which has helped me a lot as I transition from agency sales to Tech sales to entrepreneurship. I eventually got into a web agency, with after I got a SCRUM master certification, which is like a project management sort of certification and the agile methodology for software development.

Nikhil 

One of the things I find interesting about your background, Jeff, is that it’s a great mix of corporate as well as entrepreneurial. It sounds like you went the opposite way, which is you started out in more of the entrepreneurial environment, and then went corporate; you mentioned that you had done some time at Capital One. From my aspect, personally with bipolar disorder, I found it very challenging to work in a corporate environment, just because it’s a very neurotypical, focused or biased environment, which is, there are certain deadlines, there are certain rules of the road, there are certain expectations that I think people with bipolar disorder – for all their strengths – it can be very challenging to navigate those constraints, sometimes you feel like they’re a round peg in a square hole.

Can you talk to me a little bit more about what that was like for you in terms of navigating, going between this environment where you were able to sort of charting your own path with the entrepreneurial scene to the corporate 9 to 5 environment?

Jeff

For sure. I think it’s interesting, because a lot of the experiences that I had in in high school and college is bipolar disorder, like waning and fluctuating moods, and attention and focus and all the all the things that you traditionally hear about people with mania, and they really did, were, they really were a feature in my career as well, that they have, right.

I mentioned working sales, I mentioned working in like refrigeration, engineering, HVAC, and at a web agency, but all these jobs, like you said, was like very neurotypical, sort of, like, very structured environment, there’s an expectation that you’re moving with urgency at all times. And it’s sometimes difficult for someone who’s got a really creative brain, which is a feature of folks that have bipolar disorder, were some of the more creative types of folks on the planet. And it’s difficult to just to work in an environment that is very structured or hierarchical, where you have a very specific area of focus. And it might not be your, your wheelhouse.

So that’s something that I struggled with originally. And then as I got to work in the more in tech, in a little bit more creative arenas in entrepreneurship, I was really able to chase my passion, and focus on the topics that I think were most interesting to me, which helped me move a lot faster and really stretch my legs. So I got to work with some very bright people, specifically at the web agency that I worked at what I found in my agency working with some of the clients I had the chance to, to support, including some solopreneurs. And people that wanted to build apps, I got into designing the defining those apps for them.

And I was able to cherry pick what projects I got to work on. Yeah, so I was especially with, like the founders that were the most inspirational what their story and their vision for their product. They’re the ones that really got me on board and sort of like enrolled me into their idea, which helped me stay committed and helped me like, really explore and discover what the best solution would be for their, for their platform, or whatever they wanted me to help them build. It was interesting, because as they’re working in my agency, I was sort of like building lines of business for people, if I wasn’t building an app for you, I was branding your business, because like, the combination of digital strategy or tech skills that I have.

But then also, the marketing stuff that I learned from my mom, working at the HVAC company, sort of connected me with how to grow a business – beyond just building a piece of software. So that’s something that became a feature of my career early on, and something I carried into my work at Capital One. This is where I was able to become an inventor; when you when you get to work with really bright people really like you know, creative minds I think it brings the best out in anybody. But because I was hired into a job function that was very much for a linear minded person, someone focused to be very diligent, be very authoritative, influential, and some of those things are, are features of like the especially the influence and

Nikhil 

Charisma, negotiation. Yeah.

Jeff

Yeah, those things are features of people with bipolar disorder experience like hypomania, which can be like…you’ve become very magnetic and influential, and you develop a following. It’s something that you can feature or manifest if you’re experiencing that that portion of the condition, but it’s not something that is easily sustained for the long term. Your brain and body sort of use up the energy and the mood passes. Unfortunately you succumb to more recuperative…or you become depressed sometimes.

Nikhil 

I’ll share a little bit about my experiences with that, because I had gone to a good business school, I worked at some of the top consulting firms, a very high-pressure environment (financial services). And for somebody with bipolar disorder, that kind of career can be very challenging just because initially, it’s very exciting. There was a podcast I listened to, with Paul English – I think I passed it on to you, Jeff. But the interviewer asks about “shiny object syndrome.” When you have bipolar disorder, there’s a lot of flights of fancy, there’s a tendency towards unbridled creativity.

And so with consulting, it’s about getting things done quickly. It’s about parachuting into a new city, whether it’s London or New York and having these challenges and puzzles that you have to solve quickly. But there’s, so typically what happens is the energy spikes when there’s something new and shiny in front of your path, you have a chance to exercise different creative and cerebral muscles, so to speak. And then if you get a setback, though, it can come tumbling down.

And so that’s really what I faced in my journey in terms of the highs and the lows. It’s just that as the challenges got greater, as the deadlines got tighter, the creative energy would explode. But then also there would also be the fallout. Can you talk to me a little bit about that in terms of in terms of your experience in the workplace?

Jeff

Oh, yeah, gladly. So I’ve worked in environments where they were very structural, structured and hierarchical, and you had to be very direct. And time management was a big feature, because so many competing priorities, people depended on for answers and decisions. And it was exhausting – absolutely exhausting for me to stay on that sort of rhythm, because I can’t sustain it. You know, I can’t sustain it. Some of the features I’ve been reading about with a new research about people with high levels of creativity, or folks with bipolar disorder, which is a big intersection there is that different areas of our brains light up on scans. I had a scan done at the Amen clinic, a SPECT scan. They gave me a shot that helped them scan my brain, so that my brain activity would show up on their scanner. I had done a bunch of computer tests that they were testing me for, like pattern matching, and facial recognition, emotion recognition, and puzzles, and verbal matching and things like that. And the difference is when my, my brain is at rest I have a concentration; my brain, if it is like, across my, across my entire brain, regardless of what’s it lights up more areas than it does for normal people where most folks, their activity when they’re focusing lights up at the prefrontal cortex, like the front…

Nikhil 

Localized activation, as opposed to just all across the map, right?

Jeff

Yeah. And so when you get to work with even consulting or when you get to work with activities that can be very stimulating, especially for me, like working in ideation, or like design thinking I get very creative. Different muscles in my brain and different cognitive functions sort of start to take over. I get really creative by, I think my pattern matching sort of spikes a little bit and start to think about…if you introduced a problem to me, I might get inspired and think about other ways that I might solve that problem based on patterns I’ve seen before and introduce ideas that I think maybe come out of left field for some people. In that role, people used to be distracted; I’d go down a rabbit hole, just coming up with ideas…

Nikhil 

I see a little Jeff in the meadow chasing a butterfly around, right?

Jeff

Yeah, yeah, exactly. The thing is I also worked in a skunk works type project at a mobile advertising agency, an adtech company. And the VP of R&D and I, and the chief architect and the client engineer and a UX researcher friend that I hired, you’re all chasing the idea of like a recommendation engine, like an algorithm that would help you get relevant news. We were talking to some really blue chip players in this space. And we were exploring, what could be done. Sometimes the VP of R&D and I, who I learned was of a certain psychological type, like on the Myers Briggs, and I know that I’m an intp. And I get really, when I get paired with folks like him, I just get inspired. I start to ramble. And I’ll just go on a rant, I’ll talk about something that’s firing in my mind an idea or pattern that I’m seeing or something that sparked my creativity. And then he was just listen, and then he would say, “hey, say that again!”

Nikhil 

He would channel it productively.

Jeff

Yeah. Happens all so many times. I’ll just be exploring my bunch ideas that pop up. And people like, “Oh, that was really interesting. Can you repeat that, please?” And yeah, so it’s like, “right, I can try to!” But it’s interesting, because I think what happens, I think what really good way for people that with this condition that contribute is when you have a partner like that, working in tech, or working in a creative field, when you have someone that gets how your brain works. Someone who can complement you and can carry the torch from what you’re good at, into what needs to be done.

I think it’s a really empowering dynamic. And I’ve had been fortunate to work a couple different scenarios where that was the case. But uh, yeah, it’s very much like a creative brain, the one that I have, and yeah, but it’s very nonlinear, too. So it’s difficult for me to like, be very direct and linear, especially today, where I I’m missing my medication?

I take medication for ADHD, like, the challenges speak in a straight line right now. So, so yeah, it’s just that my experience in my career is just like, when I can be the creative. I can contribute my full self. You know, when you when you ask me one thing and do one thing, only, it can be very difficult, especially without the right mix, to be able to sustain that.

Nikhil 

Yep. It’s a very interesting challenge. Because being someone with bipolar disorder I consider myself fairly creative. I think I have pretty good ideas, especially when something catches my attention. I can focus and commit to it. But it is hard to maintain that focus. I’m not sure what in terms of your situation, but there’s a high degree of comorbidity with ADHD, where it’s really tough to sustain this attention. I’ve talked a little bit about some of the positions that might not be very well suited to people with bipolar disorder. I would say, consulting is a challenging one. I mean, it’s not a universal law; obviously, there are folks with bipolar disorder who have successful careers in this field. I think you, you talked about it as well, which is about the importance of having a partner, or a collaborator who can keep you on track, who can channel your energy, productivity productively. I’ll speak to that a little bit as well.

You and I have talked about my situation, wherein I’m fortunate to have a partner not only in life, but also professionally, who was my wife, she launched this company, GIOSTAR, and she’s brought me on to help with marketing. And it’s one of those things where I right up there with you, Jeff, I mean, if a new idea catches my attention, if there’s some new, some new posts on LinkedIn, or Twitter, I’ll chase it down, and find that person connect with them, and really just become, become the expert on that topic in 24 hours. And then meanwhile, there’s a whole list of deliverables that are piling up. So I would say definitely, the environment is very important in terms of identifying a good career path for someone with bipolar disorder. What would you say, if you were to add to that list of positions or environments of positions that are really well suited for people with bipolar disorder?

Jeff

You mentioned a couple of really interesting themes there with the comorbidity with ADHD. I don’t have an official ADHD diagnosis. I do have a lot of the symptoms but I think they bucket it all under bipolar disorder. It’s also worth mentioning I got hit in the head. So I’ve got some missing gray matter up there too. I think from a car accident, so some of the some of the symptoms of ADHD also manifest with people with somatic brain injuries. So that’s something that I think I get the support for.

But in the workplace, I think some things that what I’ve learned is that people with bipolar disorder, can do just about anything. The challenge becomes the supports the accommodations, which were supposed to get, or should be eligible, getting those accommodations, or getting the right scenario or our team to work with you and make sure that you’re able to be successful can be very difficult.

So you know, the types of things I think we’re naturally suited for, or when we get to lead. Yeah, like, if we, if we, in charge of the direction, whether that’s chasing a passion of ours, or being challenged to come up with a new solution, or writing and creating, that you have the people to support you, they can see when you’re struggling, help keep you oriented, and also capture the things that you uncover that inspire them to achieve.

So it’s interesting, I think when we’re self paced, when we can be the person controlling the beat, and I think that that becomes very productive for us. Sure, but anyone, I mean, that, look, I subscribe to the idea that anyone can do anything but it really does come down to the scenario, the team, if you have people that are working with you, and finding what ways to compliment yourself. When I was running my agency, I’ve hired people or contractors to help support me where I struggled. And this is not just for because of my disabilities, but then also because it’s also different skillwise. Like, I’m not a graphic designer, I’m not a an illustrator, I’m not a programmer, necessarily. So I would find those people to support me, but when you’re working in an organization, you don’t necessarily have the jurisdiction to be able to say, oh, I need this, I need that or I need that.

So it’s, it really depends on if you if you have that sort of support, and the scope to be able to make decisions about who to partner with, at a big company that’s, I think they have more resources, and they should be willing to support you and accommodate you like that. But it’s not always the case a lot of times, asking for accommodations, restructuring your job, or changing the way that you’re supervised or your performance is measured, or getting more time to do tasks or working more independently where you have, like a stack you can pick up, and then you can work through that at your own pace, but the quality of your work is measured more than the quantity, that’s another dimension of it. A lot of times I see and make connections that other people don’t see and solve problems that people don’t even aren’t even aware exist they don’t notice that this is a deficit in our in our in our project, or they don’t notice there’s a gap here and our solution. Those kinds of connections, I’m really drawn to make.

Nikhil 

Let me let me ask you something, Jeff, because I’d like to understand a little bit better. I’m speaking from personal experience, one thing that just absolutely derailed my career. I think things are things are definitely on a better track than they were. But there were some rough moments, where once I’m into a new project, things are exciting. But then if there’s an offhand comment or some personal annoyance or disturbance or some conflict with a co-worker creeps in. It can literally I mean, it could derail me for days, weeks sometimes. Did you face that a lot in your career, like in terms of personal drama creeping into the workplace or maybe just getting your feet you know, feelings hurt or the personal element, derailing the freight train of creativity.

Jeff

So I became a client of my state’s vocational rehab agency. Every state has a vocational rehab agency. And you can go with my it’s called the Department of Aging and Rehabilitative Services, I live in Virginia. And then they were a great me they come up with jobs for you to apply to and support and courses for you to take, resume workshops, job interview workshops, but then also just gave me the support having the state behind me. They decided that I was as disabled as a person can be priority one, and that I have three or more serious functional limitations that affects my daily life and my ability to work. So that sort of made me understand like the severity of my condition; it is a real struggle. My life is very different, my condition or my neuro divergence is different than someone who is more neurotypical. Or perhaps have an easier time just being a member of society in the workforce. So I need a new support.

And something that I would have loved didn’t get it is a job coach, because of the challenges that people were diversity was neurodivergent have is we have interpersonal challenges, sir. And like you said, personal things that come into come in a baggage we might have variances we might have that have been traumatic can affect us and our ability to work. Now one of my more recent roles I was working with, with a tech lead, where we just we just butted heads, we just couldn’t get along. And I know that she had some challenges and some baggage, and I had some baggage. It just became two rough edges that just ground on each other. And so what really would have been wonderful to have for me, is the accommodation, or I could have had a job coach. And I think what happens is when you ask for a job coach, like I’ve never had one before, but I understand what they can do.

Nikhil 

So tell me more about the job coach concept. And I’m curious about this concept, because obviously, most companies have an HR department, they have some type of counseling. But tell me a little bit more about this job coach. Is that somebody who has the disorder that you’re talking or is sort of in that ballpark in terms of their psychological profile? Or is it something else about someone who maybe helps navigate some of these challenges?

Jeff

I think it could be someone with a lived experience like a PA be someone who has a training and insight in, in our case, experience or training and supporting people with psychiatric disabilities, or neuro divergence, I think you can have a specialist, yeah. But for me, what really would have been helpful is to have a job coach, someone who sits in on my meetings, someone who is aware of some of the work that I’m doing, and can work with my manager, myself, my teammates to see where my disability is interfering with my ability to be productive, or stay on task, deliver on time, but also how that affects my team, and the quality of the work that we’re doing or quantities. And so it’s really something that can you do not report to who is there for you, and your employment, who’s in support of your employment, but then also can act an advocate for you, but then also is aligned to what the team or the company’s mission is. So they can help you express your best self, and be the most productive you, and find a way for your team and your organization to support you. So that you can be as much of an asset as perhaps someone who doesn’t have these challenges can be.

And I think that’s really what it comes down to. It’s like having an advocate for your productivity for your contributions, and helping the organization and your team and / or your manager, understand what deficits you may have, and also what support they can provide for those. But then also to see what the gifts that you may have other people may not be aware of?

Nikhil 

That sounds a lot like, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the IEP concept, the individualized education program. I’m thinking about that because my son has an IEP, where it’s catered towards their challenges, some of the strengths. Are you familiar with that IEP concept?

Jeff

I actually just went through that with my son, I’ve got a six-year old to see if I need to, and they decided that we decided he didn’t, he was doing better than we thought. But I get the idea of is like having some having an individualized path or support for you.

Nikhil 

Yeah, and I mean, I think it’s so important because I look at my son, and he’s very intelligent, but he’s a little bit of, as I said before, a square peg in a round hole. And a lot of these guidelines, a lot of these required behaviors, just sitting in class and conforming to the template is very challenging. And so I am very heartened to see that the educational system is trying to provide accommodation so that these people can have a successful career. And I think it’s amazing, what you’re proposing for the workforce is just have you seen something like that in place?

Jeff

No, it’s not something that I had experience with. I had, through the state, the vocational rehab agency, I was able to get a Communication Coach, who was invaluable for me, and just helped me as if I was having some interpersonal challenges or like, wasn’t saying it right or wasn’t advocating for myself in a way. But she wasn’t internal. And I think what really would help is if we had these types of advocates internally, and could work with HR. Honestly, I think it’s a complete gap in the system right now.

I’ve seen some people in the especially in the neurodiversity space, try to step into this this role, there’s a there’s lady who goes by forallabilities; I think it’s forallabilities.com. And she’s on Instagram to share some good content in a space where it’s like job design helping an organization either write their job postings, so that they can still be so that people with these different challenges or, or different ways of being in showing up in the workplace, understanding that they can still be eligible or still be qualified or competent enough to be able to fill these roles. Because I think a lot of times, when you have structural ableism, systemic stigma and all those types of things, it’s easy for someone who doesn’t have these challenges to, to read a job description or a task or…

Nikhil 

Performance objectives.

Jeff

And they don’t realize that they’re encoding an ableist perspective or bias into how they’re writing it, or how they’re defining. And it can be a real barrier to contributing, if something is written a certain way, or is measured a certain way. And like there’s like, there’s a quote about gold measuring a goldfish by its ability to climb a tree, it becomes the same thing.

Nikhil 

Yeah, right. Yeah, an imperfect yardstick, I guess you could say.

 So on your on your profile you’ve got three pillars: innovation, product management, and neurodiversity. And that’s a very interesting concept. Because typically, when you talk about neurodiversity, or all the press that’s out there, typically, it seems to be more centered around autism. But it sounds like what you’re trying to push forward is trying to broaden the context in which that term is used to also apply to people with bipolar disorder. So I wanted to talk a little bit more about your efforts in advocacy. Because obviously, you’re very creative person, it sounds like you’ve got a lot of plates spinning. But I wanted to talk about your goals, or maybe what you’ve accomplished in the space of bipolar advocacy. And if you could talk a little bit about the app that we had discussed a little bit and maybe just if, if there’s folks who are listening if there’s people that you’d like to collaborate with, or maybe just even have coffee with, maybe talk a little bit about that in a broader sense.

Jeff

There’s a lot of things here with neurodiversity. Neurodiversity is a term that was originated was born from the research that I believe Judy Singer did in the late 90s. And some of the research and reporting that another gentleman wrote and neurotribes, and a lot of like, a lot of this emerged around the early 00’s from the autistic community. And so there was an adoption of this and the autistic community, to help them understand that and help their world, their caregivers, and others understand that autism is just a way of life, it’s a way of being, and that’s okay. And so, but this, this idea has turned into this theory natural biodiversity is the same thing with brain diversity, which the same thing with like behavior diversity has spread beyond just autism it hasn’t just gone into like things; ADHD is highly comorbid with autism, but then also comorbid, with bipolar. And likewise, all these different conditions that are labeled, and diagnosed, and discussed as disorders in the medical community, are also identities.

Nikhil 

Yeah, we were talking about that before about how they’re not necessarily disorders, but it’s almost like traits of the human being like brown eyes, black hair, etc.

Jeff

That’s small people, short people, big people, tall people light skinned people, dark skinned people, and folks with all different attributes. Likewise, you’ve got brains, that are all different sizes, and shapes, and so on. So you’ve got people with different neurologies, or different bodies. And as such, you’ve got different types of behavior. And not all of the behaviors are necessarily like adaptive like, sometimes you’ve got someone who can’t focus. Sometimes you got someone who can’t control their speech, or folks even walk in all these are different ways of being in the world. And they’re all okay. They all have to be, because this is how we are.

But the challenge is that society was built and structured for folks that are more of the mode – the most common type of a way to show up in the world. So we have to figure out a way to make the world accessible. You know if we can design an inclusive world, from this from scratch; neurodiversity isn’t specific to autism, it has grown into a more spectrum of neurology, or conditions or ways of being. Bipolar disorder, which can be something it’s has a genetic origin, that can be triggered or expressed as a result of trauma is also one of those sorts of orientations. And I think what’s really interesting about neurodiversity is it doesn’t necessarily belong to a diagnosis or a type; it’s more like a paradigm.

Nikhil 

Yeah, it’s a weird, yeah, it’s a perspective, it’s a way of a new way of assessing all these different attributes.

Jeff

Yeah, really, it’s like a lens. Recognizing that the person that you’re interacting with, is different than you, their body is different, their brain’s different, and their behavior is different. And that’s all okay. It’s not okay to act out or, or break the law or hurt somebody. Those are things that aren’t okay. But like the way that people speak, when people think all that all those differences are natural. And it’s not necessarily it’s not to say that one is wrong, or one is right. So long as we’re all trying to get along, we’ve got to make room for everybody. And so I think neurodiverse really interesting new lens or shift. Instead of thinking of people with medical diagnoses as broken or sick, like the medical world that consists ordered, we just think of us is different.

Nikhil 

It’s not a binary thing. It’s, it’s more of a continuum than there are shades of gray yet.

How does this play into your advocacy? Tell me more about what your what your goals are? I mean, are you have you thought about maybe doing some speaking; maybe tell me more about the app, I guess, I’d love to hear more about all those different irons you have in the fire?

Jeff

Happy to; so I’ve been self-advocating. Since college I’ve moved out as a lawyer since I was diagnosed. As a result, I’ve encountered a lot of different scenarios where there’s been stigma and bias. Yeah, structural and so I’ve learned what it’s like to be someone with a serious mental illness or just a very different way of being or divergence in the world.

So I’ve only just recently, in the last couple years, really understood the significance of that socially like, the opportunity, I should say, for me to step into more of an advocacy role. You know, I thought maybe I could start after working at an innovation group, where I was able to get some patents through, that I might start a place for people like us like, an incubator for neurodivergents where I could help them products or express some ideas, help them define what, what they see in a way that could be beneficial to others, to help them manifest that.

So it could be a portfolio, it could be a patent, it could be a script or what have you. And I would just be a part of a team like that to help bring those ideas from the neurodivergent. Diverse, diverse community into reality. Advocacy really became a way for me to heal. And I went through a lot of stuff, like a midlife crisis, I lost my father, I got divorced. And I decided to come up with medicine, which was a terrible idea for me. And it had to rebuild. You know, and so in doing this, I was able to get friends and family and people that really cared about me that I would consider, like part of my brain trust.

So they would just ask me how I’m doing. I tell them to keep them updated, you know? And I thought, Man, what a wonderful resource to have. This chat is only about a half dozen, that that are just listening in as I’m, as I’m updating them, can chime in and give me motivated, or ask me questions, help me keep me centered, kind of like what a therapist does, but these people are in my community.

And they see me, as they’ve known me their whole lives or my whole life they’re aware of different proclivities and particularities in a way that a professional can really appreciate.

Nikhil 

They’ll see the three-dimensional version of you as opposed to a static cross section that therapists typically sees.

Jeff

Yeah, and you’re not necessarily pathologizing me. I think there’s concern to them, I’m doing well and just like, I’d be concerned that they are. So I thought, I wonder what would happen if practitioners and providers could get this information from a patient’s peer group? You know, is there a way for people that are on the care team (your loved ones or people that check on, or a sponsor, or a teacher and neighbor, a parishioner or what have you to report you know, when someone isn’t doing well, or maybe medication changes, also them to go off the rails or maybe it’s having an effect or a symptom that they’re not reporting, because they may not have the awareness of it. I mean, that could save someone’s life. Yeah, that type of information, getting back to a prescriber can make all the difference between this person losing their job, or behaving erratically in public and getting arrested for it, versus a valued contributor in their community or who knows, a Nobel prize?

Nikhil 

Well, I can tell you that that’s a very powerful to use our terminology use case. And I can speak to that from personal experience, because as a lot of people with bipolar disorder can attest to 70% of bipolar patients are misdiagnosed. Because typically what happens is, when you’re in a manic phase, you’re on top of the world, nothing’s gonna stop you. And why would you want to go get changed? You know, it’s everyone else who doesn’t get your genius. So typically, the only time that people go in for treatment is once they plummeted into depression.

And that’s what happened to me over and over and over again, it’s just that I would be on a high and then obviously, things would trend downwards. And then that’s when I would go seek treatment. It unfortunately just kept getting identified as depression. And so I think what you’re describing is very important is that the family I think, needs a voice, family and friends, they need some type of line into the therapist, or is that somewhere along the lines of what your peer care app is designed for?

Jeff

No, you’re exactly right. The idea with peer care, is it’s a way for the people that care about you, to update your providers, on, on what they see what’s happening to you. And the providers have access to a 360 degree view of a patient in their own community. It’s an SMS based platform where I have my peers, but it’s something that I’m recruiting beta testers for as we’re continuing to refine it. My peers get a survey message to them; they answer a few questions, and they fill in a couple answers that for questions that aren’t quantitative, where they can record what could potentially be very important information for a provider to view and. Then it connects through a database and an API into an electronic health care record, or health record, or a case management system, where the providers can review this information and consider it as part of their, their normal care or their treatment plan.

And so it’s a really interesting opportunity for people that care about a patient to contribute to their treatment. I think of peer care as the intersection of that problem, because a patient doesn’t always know when they’re not well, and also, they may not always speak up, or self-report, some people with bipolar disorder with addiction, because they’re used to self-medicating, and they know how they would like to feel. And they may, as a result of use drugs or other even behaviors like gambling and to help them stay stimulated.

So that’s something that providers may not hear from the patient themselves, but in a peer group concerned about them, to tell the provider that, hey, he’s drinking a lot of caffeine again, or he’s being very promiscuous. Is he, okay, he might be manic. But the patient themselves might not be willing or able, or aware enough to report that to their prescriber or the therapist.

So I worked on a platform for caregivers or have been recently healthcare incubator, and we get to talk to some social workers. And I was learning about some practices. And a provider and neuro psychiatrist I used to go to they have a social worker in the practice. And I think that’s a good model, it’s a really good model where it’s not your therapist necessarily. It’s not your prescriber, necessarily, but it’s someone with the experience with social work. And the practice is there, which really means access to a number of different resources, and people are just trained in knowing how to connect people, and how to support people as they grow and get stronger and recover. And integrate in aspects of the world and workplaces and so on.

So these people are really well suited for that sort of information, because it doesn’t interfere with your care, but are people that can inform your care and also what you’re, what they’re gathering for, for the professionals who are all your care team, your medical care team. So I’m really excited about peer care. It really is a problem that takes all kinds takes a village so to speak, to get someone well again.

Nikhil 

Absolutely. Is there anything else you want to add to wrap things up?

Jeff

I think the best way for people to keep in touch with me is just check out bipolarist.com. You can find me on Twitter, the bipolarist, Instagram at the same and /bipolarist on Facebook. But I’m really just, I’m out here I’m out here for people like us people in neuro divergence, I want to have that conversation that may be awkward or difficult. I want to advocate for workplaces, I hope that I’ll be able to come back on the show and speak with others and Twitter. And maybe if I’m lucky some panel where we can really start to define a future for people with serious mental illness is being accepted and included in in the workplace and understood in society.

That’s something I’m really excited about. So check me out online, and feel free to book and book a time with me on my website, we can schedule a call for just a chat to see what’s going on with your life and how I might be able to help you.

Nikhil 

Perfect, perfect. And that’s bipolarist.com. I think you said your Twitter handle was also bipolarist or is that was there another handle that

Jeff

Yeah. Someone has it on Twitter. So I went with thebipolarist, behind me by Instagram as well. And bipolar itself on Facebook.

Nikhil 

Anyone in particular you’re looking to connect with you’ve mentioned some incubators, you’ve mentioned, product developers, any specific profiles of folks you’d like to connect with.

Jeff

If you are a prescriber, or a social worker or some sort of care worker for folks with necessary sense of illness, I’d love to talk to you. Maybe we can set you up with data access to peer care, or if you’re someone that’s organizing a panel or a conference, I’m available as a speaker, so very interested to get in any aspect to the movement.

Nikhil 

Excellent. Well, thanks so much, Jeff. This is really a treat to speak to you. I really feel like there’s a lot we have to discuss, with our shared backgrounds and perspectives. And I think through conversations like this, we can definitely help further break the stigma and help people with not just bipolar disorder, but different people who are on different points of the spectrum, just live happier and healthier lives. So thanks again, Jeff. Really appreciate it.

Jeff

Thank you Nikhil, and thanks to Shelly for having me on.